a question for the historians

[Julian Winston]

At 10:14 PM +0000 3/28/04, Anna de Burgo wrote:

Since this is addressed to me, personally, I will not let it slip by.
I too, have no time to waste. In a recent message, "snoozybun" wrote:
"write with respect, or not at all."
I believe I always have written in such a manner. Can't say the same
for you, Anna.

Jeremy Crowley asked a question about the truth of a story pertaining
to Hahnemann and horse and buggy, and its relationship to succussion.
The story he quoted has been heard many times over the years. I can't
say how long it has been circulating, but I've heard it for as long
as I've been involved in homeopathy.
When someone asked me (in my capacity as editor of HT) to comment
upon it a number of years ago, I did some research and concluded that
it is like an "urban legend" interesting but with no basis in fact.
I subsequently wrote a piece in HT about it, and that was modified
for inclusion in my book "The Faces of Homeopathy."
I would truly appreciate it if you told me EXACTLY how I was being
petty, arrogant, and rude in my reply to Mr. Crowley, because I saw
myself answering the query in a factual way-- commenting that it was
a "myth" and giving references relating back to the Organon as to
where this story might have derived, and mentioning that all
Hahnemann wrote on the matter seemed to suggest he was looking for a
way of developing an "intimate mixture." Sorry I did not quote the
sources in the Organon editions for that concept, but I was just
replying off the top and did not feel it to be a in need of tight
references.
This shows little respect for the whole list. As for referring to me
personally... well, you've never met me (nor I you) so you are making
judgements based only upon what you have read, and how you have
decided to read into it. Come to Slovenia in August. See me in
person. Then decide.
If you want it to be OK, that's fine with me.
I know the student I have-- both in my 23 years of teaching
homeopathy and in my 34 years of teaching design at a university
level. They don't need your pity. They are doing fine-- as designers
and homeopaths.
Signing something "Warmly" after the load you delivered is rather amusing.

JW

[Julian Winston]

> >At 2:51 PM -0500 3/25/04, jeremycrowley@aol.com wrote:

[snip the rest]

I've been thinking a lot about this. This is just a general comment....
I think that unless one studies particular periods in history one has
a tendency to think of "past" as anything that happened before they
were born. It all blends into one.
When one thinks of a Doctor (Hahnemann?) in his horse and buggy, what
images come up? Where are your cultural/visual references?
I often think of "Doc" in "Gunsmoke" driving out in his buggy to see
an ailing patient on a farm.
If you place THAT in context, you'll find that "Gunsmoke" was
supposedly set in the "West" in the 1880s. It took place in Dodge
City, Kansas-- which is really only about half-way across the USA--
certainly not as far "west" as Arizona. 1880 was 100 years AFTER
Hahnemann. The American West was NOT Germany of the 1780s.
When Hahnemann moved to Machern in the spring of 1801 he described it
as being about a day's travel from Leipzig. Perhaps Gaby (who is in
Germany and has a good Michelin Road Guide) can correct me, but I
believe that Machern is about 20 miles from Leipzig. It took a DAY to
travel that distance. The reason that a place like Europe is dotted
with so many small towns is that people just didn't travel much. A
move to another town was a significant journey. It took 15 days (or
more) to get from Paris to Leipzig.
Furthermore, (and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) is that few
people of the middle class (Where I place Hahnemann) had the money to
own and do the upkeep on a horse. Although Hahnemann moved frequently
via rented wagons, once he settled, he did not travel about. His
clients came to him-- and he was just in the same position as most
other doctors.
The popular "dog cart" we read of in English literature of the 1880s
was not there in Hahnemann's time because most of the roading
infrastructure wasn't there. By the time the American west arrived,
you had enough space to have towns which were far apart, and which
necessitated a mode of travel other than walking.
Two movies which give a good depiction of life at the time in Germany
(1780-90) were "Amadeus" and "the Kenneth Brannagh's "Frankenstein"
(which also portrays medical school at the time). Not many people,
other than the wealth, had carriages or horses. Most walked.
So to understand the time will give a better understanding of the Man.

JW

[Jitka Drábková]

Anna,
I do not understand you at all. Change the list, please, and do not
waste your precious time here!
In the Czech Republic, we would call you "pitomec".
I am just switching on the filter to redirect all post from you to the
trash folder - the only right place for it.
Jitka

Anna de Burgo wrote:

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Anna,

Whooooo, a lesson on "manners" from Anna... Now there's a treat.

Julian's been on these lists for a decade or more and has for all of that
time been a much valued and much loved member, both of the lists and of the
homeopathic community at large. Your position? Well... What have you
contributed other than "good questions" (and other sorts) and bile? The
world is full of good questions; you're not the only clever thinker around,
and I think you are *far* too impressed by your own (as you evidently see
it) "piercing insight". Perhaps you'd be happier just talking to a mirror
for a while...

And the world is positively awash in bile and bad manners, so your presence
so far has brought us nothing of note.

Julian, on the other hand, offers rigorously researched and accurate
information, in a world littered with myths, half-truths, and lies. He
offers it in a way that is brief (never wastes our time!), to-the-point,
sometimes humorous (in this sour old world, humor is never a waste of
time!).

If Julian's so horrible and you're so great, how come people *like* him and
*ask* for his input, while all we do with you is ask you to either change
your tune (it's old and ugly) or just go away?

I find it peculiar that you try to correct Julian's "manners" by verbally
kicking him and us in the teeth. I think it's fortunate that you've got
that "independent income", because if this (spitting at people you don't
like) is your customary way of handling frustration, you're going to need
it.

Anna, what is your purpose in being here, what did you hope to accomplish
with this latest bit of nastiness? If you don't like the party, why not
"take it like a man" (or any other sort of rational adult) and leave? Maybe
use the time working "in the public sector", learn some people skills, some
patience and some humility. Then try us again.

Shannon

on 3/28/04 4:14 PM, Anna de Burgo at annadeburgo@hotmail.com wrote:

[Rita Vander Straeten]

SHANNON,

THIS DESERS OF A STANDING OVATION,BRAVO.
RITA

[Rita Vander Straeten]

OPPS TYPO
SHOULD READ DESERVES
RITA

[Dale Moss]

Speaking of rude. Let's toss this cookie -- out.

Peace,
Cinnabar

[Allen Coniglio]

Brilliant and logical as usual.

AC

[Gaby Rottler]

Hi JW,
Exactly.
Correction:
13 km east of Leipzig.
He then moved 11km north to Eilenburg, where he bought a house that he
tried to adapt to his needs, then moved to Wittenberg, tghen to Dessau,
where his wife had been born then to Torgau in 1805.

Tischner says (Geschichte der Homöopathie - History of Homoeopathy,
1939):
"In some of these places he soon seemed to have got a clinic, like in
Machern, where he relates, that because of his patients he can't even
take his meals."
Concerning rented carriages there's a nice part of a letter written in
Haehl, 1794:
" ..."If I can agree with the man and like the carriage, which I do not
know beforehand, and if the cost for the day is cheaqp, I might (if I
wish) use him until I get there. ...On an average I drive no more than 4
or 5 miles a day, and I decide my plans each day in order to be free to
make just such a short journey as I like."

Of course that refers to travelling from one town to another, not
visiting patients.

I didn't find many references in my books concerning Hahnemann's daily
practice.

From the top of my head I know his recommendation that every patient
should come or be brought to the doctor, if possible.
Yes, Hahnemann was not a wealthy man in those early decades of the 19ths
century, so he probably walked, too.

I have a few more thoughts concerning the development of succussion (no
horse involved..) - but that will take some more historical digging.

Best,

Gaby

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gaby Rottler
Germany
rottler@curantur.de

http://www.curantur.de
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Julian Winston]

At 8:37 AM +0200 3/30/04, Gaby Rottler wrote:
And... the American West of the movies (a la John Wayne and TV
westerns) bore little resemblance to the reality of it. I recall a
movie reviewer criticizing "Tombstone" because the sheriff was
wearing "non western clothes" i.e., a vest and a derby. The poor
reviewer was confusing reality with TV. Those WERE the clothes the
well-dressed law-officer wore at that time (1881).
By the way (**homeopathic content here**) if you want to see two
GREAT portrayals of end-stage tuberculosis, just view the Doc
Holliday character in both "Tombstone" and in "Wyatt Earp." Very
different takes on the same character. Val Kilmer did the first and
Dennis Quaid (who went on a starvation diet to play the tubercular
Holliday) did the second.
There is also a magnificent little scene in "Tombstone" where
Holliday and Bill Brocius have a go at each other in Latin-- back
when you learned that language when you went to school!
Wow. That's about 8.5 miles. One day's journey for Sam, about 5
minutes now by car!
This is great stuff, Gaby!
Again, short distances over bad roads.
I look forward to your results. Wish we could just channel the old
man and ask him, but I'm not that good at it!

Best!

JW