Minutus

Oh dear, it looks like "no doing" might have been the way to go, but I
didn't... I'd suggested that if she felt symptoms returning she could take
a water dose as needed, succussing before each re-dose. But on talking to
her just now, that did not work out...

Can folks who are experienced with water dosing please give me some feedback
on this? The water dose seems to have backfired in a big way, and I don't
understand why, or what to do next.

She says that about a day after the dry dose -- which seemed to have worked
so very nicely -- she was beginning to feel uncomfortable again, and took a
water dose (she used 3 pellets to a jar of water -- I can't imagine why that
would have been a problem, but maybe it was??? -- one tsp for a dose), and
immediatley got a severe headache which lasted about half an hour. She then
had quite a bad night, waking about every hour with "too vivid" dreams,
stomach cramping, diarrhea (those had been present before, but the too-vivid
dreams I do not recall her mentioning, but forgot to ask). Just now she is
feeling very unhappy, some creepy-crawly, still some hallucinatory stuff.

Feeling so desperate, want this to be over
feel so creepy in my mind.
agitation, restlessness (mentally -- not about moving around), but
listlessness at same time; anxiety, not attached to anything.
skin has a sort of crawling sensation around my shoulders, back of neck,
upper arms.
queasy
emotionally volatile (close to tears briefly)
kind of spacey feeling, hard to focus, lose the drift of what I'm talking
about, while I'm talking about it.
[Q: what might help you feel better in any way? A... (confused) I don't
know. For this to be over! ... I feel chilled. A long, hot shower sounds
good.
desire for company or alone? probably being alone is better. I really like
having [her daughter] around, but... (daughter is a very busy 15 year old,
not able to spend much time with her, and is having trouble with the whole
situation; so, my friend is adamant about not asking her daughter for any
sort of help, which seems unfortunate...)

what are you able to do with your time? I can read a little. can't focus
enough to work (she is a writer and "organizer", solve problems; hard to
focus. end up lying in bed a lot, which doesn't feel very good. feel
really tired -- more sleepy than tired. Listless and restless at the same
time. I want to get a little exercise, but can't quite get myself moving.

cortisone? stepped down monday by one mg, keeping with the original
schedule of withdrawal.
chest pain has been less since got off codeine.

All thoughts appreciated -- what does anyone make of this??? Why should
water dose have made her worse????

Thanks,
Shannon
on 12/17/03 8:32 AM, homoeopathy at homoeopathy@freeuk.com wrote:

It might simply be the repetition was given to soon, it might be that the
first dose worked in a placebo way and the reaction to the next dose was
coincidence, it might be that the second dose was just too much.

The thing is you have to be sure of the remedy. If you are then you might
have to play around with the potencies. If you are not sure you should
re-take the case and prescribe accordingly and don't waste time trying to
find answers which might not be there for certain.

Best wishes, Joy

www.homeopathicmateriamedica.com
on 12/17/03 6:56 PM, Bob&Shannon at shannonnelson@tds.net wrote:

Oh dear, it looks like "no doing" might have been the way to go, but I
didn't... I'd suggested that if she felt symptoms returning she could take
a water dose as needed, succussing before each re-dose. But on talking to
her just now, that did not work out...

Can folks who are experienced with water dosing please give me some feedback
on this? The water dose seems to have backfired in a big way, and I don't
understand why, or what to do next.

She says that about a day after the dry dose -- which seemed to have worked
so very nicely -- she was beginning to feel uncomfortable again, and took a
water dose (she used 3 pellets to a jar of water -- I can't imagine why that
would have been a problem, but maybe it was??? -- one tsp for a dose), and
immediatley got a severe headache which lasted about half an hour. She then
had quite a bad night, waking about every hour with "too vivid" dreams,
stomach cramping, diarrhea (those had been present before, but the too-vivid
dreams I do not recall her mentioning, but forgot to ask). Just now she is
feeling very unhappy, some creepy-crawly, still some hallucinatory stuff.

Feeling so desperate, want this to be over
feel so creepy in my mind.
agitation, restlessness (mentally -- not about moving around), but
listlessness at same time; anxiety, not attached to anything.
skin has a sort of crawling sensation around my shoulders, back of neck,
upper arms.
queasy
emotionally volatile (close to tears briefly)
kind of spacey feeling, hard to focus, lose the drift of what I'm talking
about, while I'm talking about it.
[Q: what might help you feel better in any way? A... (confused) I don't
know. For this to be over! ... I feel chilled. A long, hot shower sounds
good.
desire for company or alone? probably being alone is better. I really like
having [her daughter] around, but... (daughter is a very busy 15 year old,
not able to spend much time with her, and is having trouble with the whole
situation; so, my friend is adamant about not asking her daughter for any
sort of help, which seems unfortunate...)

what are you able to do with your time? I can read a little. can't focus
enough to work (she is a writer and "organizer", solve problems; hard to
focus. end up lying in bed a lot, which doesn't feel very good. feel
really tired -- more sleepy than tired. Listless and restless at the same
time. I want to get a little exercise, but can't quite get myself moving.

cortisone? stepped down monday by one mg, keeping with the original
schedule of withdrawal.
chest pain has been less since got off codeine.

All thoughts appreciated -- what does anyone make of this??? Why should
water dose have made her worse????

Thanks,
Shannon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Shannon.

Generally speaking, when a remedy works beautifully for a short period of
time, then there is a severe aggravation on repetition, my experience has
been that the remedy is close to what's needed, but not right on -- it's an
"incompatible" remedy to the simillimum, in essence. A single dose of the
same remedy in a very low potency (e.g. 6c) might help to mitigate the
effects. If the patient is unbearably uncomfortable, possibly a good
strategy might also be to take the present case and prescribe on it, then
let everything settle down. The present symptoms can also be useful for
finding the true simillimum.

For what it's worth. Rosemary

Thanks Joy,
Of your choices, I think the only plausible ones (in this particular
contexdt) are that the dose was too much, or the dose was too soon. But I
thought the whold *point* of water dosing was that you didn't have to worry
(within reasonable bounds, anyway) about re-dosing too soon??? I thought
that was their big advantage???

And re "too much", why would three pellets dry *not* be too much, yet 1 tsp
ouf ot 3 tablets in a cup of water, be "too much"???

As far as being sure of the remedy, well, that may be a few years. And my
experiences with folks who *are* sure of the remedies they've given me, has
been awfully darned dismal, so I'm not too optimistic on *that* topic right
now... And even if the remedy is *wrong*, I do not understand the violent
negative response she had to the water dose! But I take your point, and
I'll look some more.

Thanks,
Shannon
on 12/17/03 1:51 PM, Joy Lucas at joy.lucas@ntlworld.com wrote:

Thanks Rosemary,
I guess that makes as much sense as anything. To prescribe on the present
symptoms I guess is what I'll try next. Do you find it surprising that this
should have happened in this (sort of) acute situation? I was quite
prepared for possibilities such as initial good result then fizzle, or not
doing much, but for her to have an agg from the second dose, and esp. a
water dose, has taken me completely by surprise. (Sheesh, I've never had
that happen with *dry* doses, and I thought I was being "conservative" in
having her switch to water????)

Best,
Shannon
on 12/17/03 2:12 PM, Rosemary C. Hyde, Ph.D. at rosemaryhyde@mindspring.com
wrote:

Hi, Shannon.

I almost always use water potencies, which in fact do tend to be gentler.
But the rules regarding the simillimum, close relatives of the simillimum,
and the action of low or high potencies still apply. I've learned the hard
way to be really cautious about repeating a remedy that holds for only a
short time without a corresponding background improvement in energy that
continues to improve. That kind of reaction is SOOO tempting to follow up
on, but it's better to wait a bit and also to assume relatively quickly that
this was a remedy pointing to the right remedy, but that its very closeness
can be hazardous -- and re-analyze the case to look for something I missed
the first time around that really does indicate the simillimum.

The good news is that often combining the new symptoms with the most
peculiar aspects of the original case, and keeping in mind that you're on
the right track (e.g., in this case, probably a plant remedy, and very
possibly another drug remedy) does lead to a very effective prescription. An
exacerbation of this nature frequently gives you more information than you
originally had to find a remedy that will work.

Happy analyzing!

Rosemary

Hi Rosemary,

If I saw a remedy given for a *chronic* condition wearing off so quickly, I
would assume it was a wrong remedy. (Tho I might give it one more try in
case there had been an antidoting factor.) In this case, tho, I would have
thought the nature of the problem -- violent detoxing -- would have ranked
it as more of an acute type, in which it might(?) have been reasonable to
need more frequent doses. What do you think -- was my reasoning mistaken on
that point?

Thanks,
Shannon
on 12/17/03 7:08 PM, Rosemary C. Hyde, Ph.D. at rosemaryhyde@mindspring.com
wrote:

That's an exellent question, Shannon, about the difference between acute and
chronic situations. I remember a synchronistic situation in which I had a
new patient complaining of an acute ear infection which she said had
happened as a result of falling off a water ski-board in high surf, with a
traumatic injury from water rushing into her ear. I had tried a couple of
seemingly indicated remedies for dramatic acute ear pain with swelling and
redness, with a notable lack of success. She is somewhat knowledgeable
about self-treatment, and treated herself then with Pulsatilla. She called
me shortly after taking it and said it had helped so dramatically that it
felt as if she had "touched God." I was a bit surprised, because I didn't
really see a Pulsatilla picture, but of course, I didn't argue with her
apparent success!

Quite by chance, at the same time, I was rereading Hahnemann's Chronic
Diseases, and had just come across a brief passage in which he said
something to the effect that in acute situations, when a remedy works
dramatically well for a short time and then fails to hold, even after
another dose, it is the wrong remedy, but one that is probably close in some
way to the simillimum. I'll have to do some research to actually come up
with the exact passage, but that was the gist of it. I had a feeling after
reading this that my patient was presenting a good example of this type of
situation.

The Pulsatilla held for 2 days, and then the patient called me again and
said the pain had returned, and the Pulsatilla no longer worked, but
actually made her feel worse. Of course, I told her to take no more Puls,
and we waited for a couple more days to see what would happen. Her
discomfort continued very intensely, and she pleaded again for help with it.

As I discussed the situation with the patient, I began to see that the ear
"infection," which had seemed to be a simple acute really was an acute
exacerbation of her chronic picture. The remedy picture that emerged
strongly for her chronic state was Carcinosin, and a split dose of Carc LM1
actually made the ear symptom disappear within a couple of days. Many other
symptoms started to resolve gradually as well, and she's still doing very
well with Carcinosin four months later.

Had I not chanced to be reading Chronic Diseases at that moment, I would
also, like you, have been puzzled by the situation, which, however, followed
exactly the path that Hahnemann had said it would. I was grateful to have
come across that little paragraph at just the right moment. It sounds as if
your patient had that type of experience with the Opium. I don't know if her
present symptoms are actually coming from her underlying chronic state, but
I suspect they may be -- that the acute poisoning reaction could be in the
past. In any case, re-analyzing the whole picture does seem to be a possible
way through the situation at this point.

Rosemary

Thanks Rosemary, very interesting!!!
I'll re-check, with all that in mind. I've definitely had the thought that
the present very peculiar reaction could(?) be linked with something in the
past, altho her M/E state now is very different from her usual one. I'll
look...

Best,
Shannon
on 12/17/03 11:39 PM, Rosemary C. Hyde, Ph.D. at rosemaryhyde@mindspring.com
wrote:

on 12/18/03 12:16 AM, Chris Gillen at chrisgillen@optusnet.com.au wrote:

YET WHEN A
Very to-the-point -- thank you!!!
Shannon