Minutus

?????
I'm *really* hoping this was a typo.
Could I request that nothing else be said about the remark on the list, lest
it pull us back into the stinking swamps...
on 1/17/03 7:00 AM, tanya marquette at tamarque@frontiernet.net wrote:

Tanya wrote:
a paranoid state cant be treated >homeopathically?

It seems to be a common assumption that homeopathic remedies will treat all
symptoms [whether in one go or sequentially we can leave aside here]. This
is unwarranted by an objective reading of Hn. The symptoms it treats are
those which arise from a disturbance of the VF. There are other symptoms
which arise from dietary deficiency and those 'spun out of the imagination.'
These symptoms Hn says can be treated by wise counsel. or by rest, holiday
etc.

So it would be wrong to pile all the symptoms together without first
assessing what is the cause.
mental symptoms arising from disturbed VF must have some correlated physical
symptoms unless it is a deeply suppressed state, but here there must have
been some in the past.

Andrew

well, i agree that any case needs to be assessed carefully. but i think there are cases that
are almost totally mental or emotional. for example the trauma felt by many after 9/11. the
sx were strictly mental/emotional. sx spun out of the imagination are still reflective of the vital
force and its needs. sx developing out of dietary needs or local toxicity in the environment need
to be addressed directly.

it seems you are leaning to a position that says that there must be physical sx for a case to
yield to homeopathic treatment. this i wouldnt agree with as a total statement.

tanya

3 quotes from the organon follow:

No,

*224*
If the mental disease be not quite developed, and if it be still somewhat
doubtful whether it really arose from a corporeal affection, or did not
rather result from faults of education, bad practices, corrupt morals,
neglect of the mind, superstition or ignorance; the mode of deciding this
point will be, that if it proceed from one or other of the latter causes it
will diminish and be improved by sensible friendly exhortations, consolatory
arguments, serious representations and sensible advice, whereas a real moral
or mental malady, depending on bodily disease, would be speedily aggravated
by such a course

*225*
There are, however, as has just been stated, certainly a few emotional
diseases which have not merely been developed into that form out of
corporeal diseases, but which, in an inverse manner, the body being but
slightly indisposed, originate and are kept up by emotional causes, such as
continued anxiety, worry, vexation, wrongs and the frequent occurrence of
great fear and fright. This kind of emotional diseases in time destroys the
corporeal health, often to a great degree.

§ 226
It is only such emotional diseases as these, which were first engendered and
subsequently kept up by the mind itself, that, while they are yet recent and
before they have made very great inroads on the corporeal state, may, by
means of psychical remedies, such as a display of confidence, friendly
exhortations, sensible advice, and often by a well-disguised deception, be
rapidly changed into a healthy state of the mind (and with appropriate diet
and regimen, seemingly into a healthy state of the body also.)

physical sx for a case to yield to homeopathic >treatment. this i wouldnt
agree with as a total statement.

I am not just leaning to it, this is my position:
*215*
Almost all the so-called mental and emotional diseases are nothing more than
corporeal diseases in which the symptom of derangement of the mind and
disposition peculiar to each of them is increased, while the corporeal
symptoms decline (more or less rapidly), till it a length attains the most
striking one-sidedness, almost as though it were a local disease in the
invisible subtle organ of the mind or disposition.

Andrew
tanya

well, i think today we would have somewhat different understandings of mental/emotional states.
people who are M/E abused as children, for example, often reflect deep M/E states of disease.
Even in the milder forms, we see so much OCD behavior that comes from insecurity and need to
apply control in what feels out-of-control to a person. Emotional trauma can be the exciting factor,
not the result of some physical disorder. Anorexia for example is today is considered a disease
of emotional origin and is treated as such.The physical results of anorexia may need treatment
due to the extent of the disease, but cure comes only when the emotional plane is dealt with.
Quite to the contrary of the aph you present, we find people somatizing their M/E states, not the
reverse.

There are too many states like this to mention here. I think that Hn's view of this is limited and
needs to be questioned in light of current knowledge and experience. So, I thank you for your
research into the Organon presented here, but need to caution you to not suspend reason in light
of new knowledge in order to pray at the feet of the master. Lest we forget, the master continually
changed as did his observations and experience.

tanya

Andrew,

Thanks for this very to-the-point offering.
So then, M/E disease may be either:
- caused *by* physical ailments, or
- cause *of* physical ailments, or
- endpoint of a physical derangement, in which the center of gravity moves
"inward" (onto the M/E plane) until eventually physical symptoms disappear.

In the first two cases, there will be physical symptoms, so presumably
treatable. \

In the third case, there may be *no* physical symptoms, leaving a case
which is one-sided (the other side having disappeared), "almost as though it
were a local disease in the ... mind or disposition."

But this doesn't say that the case is untreatable. Hahnemann does give
directions for approaching a one-sided case. He seems to say that in this
case you are starting out with "a guess and a prayer", which does not bode
so well for any case, makes one-sided cases harder and less certain, but
not, in my understanding, necessarily hopeless.

I'm also remembering certain cases where full-blown psychosis (one case was
a "street person" who had completely lost touch with the world, muttereing
and expounding to the air, etc.) responded quickly and dramatically to a
remedy chosen entirely on the basis of presentation and behavior. This was
one of Greg Bedayn's from some years back; he gave the guy his remedy in (of
all things) his morning cup of scalding coffee, and within a few days the
guy had a haircut and new clothes and was working at getting on with his
life. I would *love* to hear long-term follow-up on that...

Andrew, does this address what you meant, or ?

Shannon
on 1/18/03 2:22 PM, Phosphor at phosphor@hotkey.net.au wrote:

from nutritional deficiency

i didnt discuss this possibility. Maybe it can happen. can you give an
example?

"inward" (onto the M/E plane) until eventually >physical symptoms disappear.
better to say : the endpoint of a derangement of the VF which originally
manifested in the physical plane.
which is one-sided (the other side having >disappeared), "almost as though
it were a local disease in >the ... mind or disposition."
but we can use the original symptoms.
he would have, in my opinon, originally shown some physical symptoms first
or at least accompanying his slide into mental confusion. in this case
counselling would be useless, it is not a mental disease per se but a
diseased VF manifesting in the mental realm.

andrew

on 1/21/03 3:17 PM, Phosphor at phosphor@hotkey.net.au wrote:
Wouldn't *have* to be nutritional deficiency. There could also be e.g.
lesion of brain or nervous system, or especially high inherited need for
various nutrients, or problems with absorption (thru deformity or allergy or
??). ddBut yes, nutritional deficiency is probably the most common reason!
I was simply thinking of what we'd call psychosomatic ailments, or nervous
ailments, e.g. ulcer caused by long-term worry or "stress", or various
intestinal conditions which can be caused similarly, etc.

In some of those cases there will be a physical cause for the emotional
upset, which then leads to more physical effects. But if we e.g. consider
one of the folks for whom Hahnemann recommended, in the aphorism you
provided, a cure thru simple advise, encouragement, etc.; what if they don't
*get* that cure; or if the cause is an irremediable situation in their life,
and the anxiety (or other stress) goes on and on? Eventually there *will*
be a physical price to pay, physical symptoms will develop.
Yes, I agree that's better.
Yes!
Yes, I agree.