Minutus

Enthalpy change is defined here and is the change in energy due to a chemical reaction.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry ... nition.htm
(Actual enthalpy can not be measured, only the change in enthalpy.)

Dissociation is not a chemical reaction.
It is just a physical separateion of parts of a molecule due to ability to move about in water.
They react with nothing chemically, so the only thermodynamic issues are the "enthalpy of solvation" - the ease with which it can dissolve. At higher temps some things are easier to dissolve, but gasses are usually harder to dissolve.
It is about how easy it is to spread out the substance evenly - not about energy avalability for something else.

In chemical reactions you can get energy for someting else, such as when magnesium chloride reacts chemically with hydrogen chloride in the stomach - there is a lot of heat generated - which is available to fo work if you wish - but it is NOT from dissolving them, it is from chemically reacting them to form new and different molecules.

Namaste, Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

WHy do you assume that ionic dissociation has anything to do with homeopathy?
Copeland talks of "dissociation of molecules" but it only occurs with what chemists call "ionic bonds" of "inorganic chemicals" in a solvent such as water.
ONLY chemically inorganic molecules dissociate in water and a very very small minority of remedies involve them. Any theory about homeopathy must explain ALL remedies not just a few at the tip[ of an iceberg, so right there we have a problem.
Most remedies involve organic molecles not inorganic ones, with covalent bonds, not ionic bonds. They do not dissociate.
Ionic bonds are simple bonds involving positive and negative charges on the positive and negative charges gravitating to the atoms in the molecules and wich stay there when they separate in water, and come togetgher again when the water is removed. Like ordinary salt. It "dissolves" (by its atoms dissociating in water - ie floating bout separately rather than joined together as most molecules do) - till you evaporate the water and the saly is left on the container, joined back together again in atomic bonds.
This is all aout "inorganic chemistry" and does not involve the vast majority of chemical bonds that are NOT ionic in nature. ALl natural stuff (plants, animals, etc, from wehi9ch most remedies are made) has organic covalent bonds.
Metals have still other structures - metal crystal structures for example. One studies it in physical chemistry.
Plastics have still other structures.
And remedies from cell phone and north poe energy have still other forms.
So what? How has ionic bonding and dissociation specifically, got anything to do with homeopathy?
You Are reading out of date 1909 stuff.
Chemistry has moved on since then, so has homeopathy.
Complete ionization of inorganic bonds does not need "infinite" dilution as your historical ref says.
It needs sufficient solvent so that ions of ionic bonds are not too crowded to dissociate.
For different substances this works at specific temp and pressure and volume.
But again - this is ionic bonds behavior only, not homeopathy and not all molecules.

The discussion of radium bromide is also not relevant.
There is a chemical reaction involved in producing gas. It has nothig to do with diluition, or dissociation.
(Is this why you are always on about radium and radioactivity?)
There is no such thing as the "power of the infinitesimal" it is a false conclusion in 1909.
He jumps to radioactivity whch is a completely separate subject, which has nothig to do with ions or dissociation and everything to do with SUB-atomic particle emissions.

For 1909 maybe he was an advanced thinker but for 2015, it is a ludicrous muddle-up of different bits and pieces with no relationship to each other. None of it applies to homeopahty. I recommend a more modern book of chemistry.
One that has clathrates included.


His biology is equally out of date.
He assumes "opsonin" (an archaic word for the introduction of antibodies to phagocytosing neutropils to make them recognizable for ingestion) to play a part in the fighting of microbes (valid in allopathy) to also be the way homeopathy works. There is no evidence that homeopathy attacks microbial invaders. The evidence is rather that cells are strengthened against microbe invasion.

Please toss out the misleading old stuff, well meant in its time but as relevant as an ox cart in a formula one race.


He does not even believe in the Law of similars which he calls a theory.
It is no theory.
Put your burned finger under the tap next time you burn them by mistake.... starting cold and gradually increasing to hot water (not burning hot but as hot as ou can handle comfortably). It will be healed by the heat, no blister in sight and no pain. Takes about 15 mins max for a nasty burn.
That is the simplest way to observe the law of similars that I can think of.

Namaste,
Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

It merely increases the energy of the system by adding some.
ALL energy in any systemn stays the same. Ifsome id added somewhere, it is lost elsewhere.

SO when you succuss you ADD energy to the water/remedy (as heat) and you remove it from your system resulting in a need to eat cookies - which takes energy from cookiers and makes it yours as the cookie disappears....and so on.
Energy canot be "used" up, it can only go form one form to another.
Gas in your car goes into the energy of moving the car. One increases as the other decreases.
The sun loses energy when it sunburns you. (Lucky it has quite a bit to spare - but the factors of scale do not change the law of conservation of energy.)

Succussion or shaking is no different:-)
Not really, becasue if it was only solvation entropy that you changed, that energy would soon be lost to the atmosphare (as the heat generated by shaking would transfer to surrounding air.) But a remedy somehow retains energy, and that is not explained by succussion solvation entropy or putting it on sugar pills (reversing solvation entropy).
It may be explained by clathrates as they are stable structures - and they may wel be duplicated or created by succussion, (maybe extremely delicate heat change measurements can prove it) and they would be relevant to ALL remedies regardless whether inorganic, organic or metallic.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Draw a star on paper, put water there and label it Aster:-)
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I agree Irene with the covalent bond. If I understand what you are saying that remedies with covalent bonds don’t get potentized, then do we just have a bunch of separate atoms floating around in suspension?

If we believe the potentization process increases a remedy’s strength, then what is causing this energy change? Could it not be possible that the initial covalent state where the atom is sharing electron pairs is not only dissociated, but also susceptible to energy changes found in dilution and succussion? Thus the atom’s response to potentization is that it dissociates to the ionic form and thus allowing the energy of the ionic bond to be changed with each subsequent succussion?

Something is going on here that we don’t, or at least I don’t understand the mechanics of.

I often wonder what events and observations Hahnemann experienced to come up with this methodology.

bob

perhaps it is relevant to remeber that :
At constant temperature, the degree of dissociation of a weak electrolyte is directly proportional to square root of its dilution.
It does not work for strong electrolytes as they very easily dissociate completely in small volumes.
and that:
Hardly any remedies involve ionic substances.
SO none of this holds any water for homeopahty:-)
HERE ARE THE RELEVANT EQUATIONS for ionic dissociation: (from the year 2013 not 1909)
http://www.sciencehq.com/chemistry/ostw ... n-law.html
SO modern chemistry does NOT agree with Copeland's 1909 story.
As to Lord Kelvin's statement as to the size of the molecule.
Let's use an example.
Sodium chloride is NaCl, Na for sodium Cl for chloride making Sodium chloride or ordinary table salt, aka Matrum muriaticum.
NaCl is TWO atoms with an ionic bond holding them together till you put them in water and they dissociate (separate) into Na+ and Cl- ions. The SAME n umber as you put into water of NaCL will become twice as many partivcles of much smaller size only becazsue the two atoms normally forming one "compound" are now two separate atoms floating about.
If you put say ten million molecules into the water, there will be twenty million atoms when they dissociate.
The NUMBER of particles does not change with dilution.
(You have implied it does change and become "plasma". Not so.)
You say
"Jones, Professor of Physical Chemistry in Johns Hopkins University, states that perhaps, the best demonstration of the almost unlimited divisibility of matter.."
THis is a story for first year students:-)
"... is furnished by some of the aniline dyes, or by fluorescein, where one part is capable of coloring or rendering fluorescent at least one hundred million parts of water."
One part per hundred million of a strong substance is readily detectable by sight or smell by most creatures.
A hundred million has 8 zeros, same as a 4C solution or a 8X solution.
The organic body systems do not find that a small amount even though we are supposed to learn in school that one 100 millionth
is a small amount.
It is all relative to size, and has no bearing on homepathy.
Fluorescein is C20H12O5 with a molecular weight of 332.30628 g/mol
SO one "part" is actually a very big part cmpared to water with its little 18g/mol size.
If we dissolved one molecule of salt, NaCL, that has a molecular weight of 57.
It is foolish to consider these very varied sizes to be comparable just because you dilute one of them (huge things) in the same number of parts of (tiny) water.
SO the comparison with parts per million is not valid.

It would if the pieces were the same size.
But it is not valid and varies by size of the startig molecule.
The fluorescein example is really about 18.5 parts per 100 million parts water.

They do not agree any such thing.
It is true that dissociation increases with increasing dilution but there is no specific end point at which all substances dissociate.
It is different for each substance, see the above 2013 link.

No it is not safe to assume.
Strong ionic compounds dissolve fully in very little water. Salt for example:-)
Avogadro has nothing to say about homepathy.
You are comparine apples and rocks.
Homeopathy uses volumes regardless of molecular weights, which makes nonsense of avogadro's number which is entirely dependent on molecular weights. Remedies have molecular weights ranging from as little as 2 for hydrogen to multiple millions for complex plastics. It makes nonsese of the idea os Avogadros number.

You can dilute a solution till you can find no molecules of solute in a significant amount of it, but if yuo start with 100 million molecules of solute tossed into water, then those 100 million particles will still be there no matter how much you dilute it. They do not go away.
Chemists have decided/agreed, for several substances how much they must dilute it to cosider it "pure" amnd "free" of dissolved substance contaminant.. THAT is how the "infinite dilution" term is used by chemists, not as your 1909 version uses it. There is a constant calculated as te "infinite dilution" of each substance to prove its purity.
There is no one "infinite dilution" as it varies by substance.
who is he? and when? a quote?
There are dozens of Joneses around:-)
professor of what subject?
AS I showed above it is all nonsense adn not applicable. If the good preofessor studied the right subject he would know that.
And then the the moon is made of green cheese:-)
There is no such thing as plasma at any dilution. The ions either dissociate fully or some are still stuck in molecules.
But what you put in is all still there in one of those two forms. There are no other forms such as plasma, for ionic bonds t hat dissociate. Te other bonds do not dissociate but do dissolve and also have agreed dilutions at which they are considered pure despite however many molecules are still in the total volume.

The explanations about homepathy exist will NOT be found in misapplied chemistry ideas.
Especially not the outdated views of 1909.

Let' look at some real places - starting with up to date knowledge.

Namaste,
Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

I did not write the post you are referencing.

t

Oh they get potentize, but they do not dissociate (separate into charged atoms) insolution so the facts of dissociation cannot have relevance in homeopathy as they do not aply to ALL remedies.
Separate molecules and also compounds, no atoms. FOr example a plant remedy has multiple different molecules
It can only work if eneergy is added fro somewhere that has some to provide.
SO the work of succussion mustbe causing an event that STORES the succussion energy, or uses it somehow in a way that retains it in a stable manner till some is transferred to a patient.
It is not dissociated, at all or it wold lose its characteristics as a chemical substance.
IN other words if you have benzene in water, it is stil benzene as the bonds are still intact.
This is not possible. A molecule is EITHER ionic bonded or uses other bonds, it is not chemically possible to go from one to another.
Covalent bonds can only be broken by a chemical reaction, they cannot break by mere introduction into a solvent like water (unless they can chemically react with the solvent to make different molecules.)
There is no conversion from covalent to ionic. It is one or the other. The rules about it are part of atomic structure of the atoms capable of making an ionic bond. Only a few can do it. It has to do with the physical arrangement of electroms on the atoms involved in an ioninc bond.
Clathrates make sense to me.
In a nutshell:

They are water molecule cages, about a hundred molecules of water per clathrate roughly.
The clathrate "cages" a larger molecule or substance (like a remedy substance, they are a lot larger than water), taking on the shape of the enclosed substance - and the clathrate has an electromagnetic frequency in accordance with its caged substance/remedy.
The caged substance can then escape from its cage, leaving an empty clathrate cage that still has the original shape and emf of the substance caged.

[This we KNOW happens - eg with methane clathrates under the sea. Some are empty but stil methane shaped. This was discovered when the Japanese wanted to extact the methane from ocean floor clathrates as an energy source instead of Fukushima and were surpried at the "empties", no methane in them, despite reading as methane clathrates.]

Hence the clathrates (a stable structure) can "remember" the substance without it being there.
MAYBE (my theory), succussion causes duplication of clathrates of the same configuration? - why not? It is all to do wit water molecule construction with two + and two - charges at a weird angle...
......so that NEW water (as we know is needed for higher potency) gets to be turned into new clathrates of same shape but stronger emf of the same frequency of the remedy
(also explains why each remedy has a frequency as generated in Rae machines etc).
For one man in one lifetime he provided unimaginable benefit to the world
I suspect he discovered some things by accident/observation (I know I did with my work on genetics and how it intersects with homeopathy) - he may have found that shaking a dlution to remove toxins, would be a natural thing. Maybe he just spotted that not shaking was not so good?
I did not find anywhere that he recorded how he chose succussion...
kept it secret:-)

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Sorry, I should have removed the comment you had on top of it along with attribution, before answering that post.
....Irene

--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Yes - science has had many great moments arising from the observant and aware person looking for one thing and recognizing something else is happening.

Also Tks for the additional info

Bob