Minutus Exchanges

[Richard Nash- Shannon]

I might add that the "comfort" level of a few, who find what is occurring here just too offensive, should not outweigh the intellectual/scientific endeavour of the many. I am all for "civil" constructive discourse and have had my share of "being attacked" here but have never considered leaving the group. And I am perpetually confused that these said people/readers, who are so offended to the point of asking Soroush to unsubscribe them, continue to read the posts! I think since you can unsubscribe to the group on your own and it requires no interaction from the moderator, that those few are perhaps trying to illicit a special interest audience with said moderator so that they could have their delicateness taken into larger/seperate consideration.
In another context perhaps similarities in other fields would help alleviate the idea that somehow Homeopathy and forums such as this should be exempt from the sometimes pointed and relevant criticisms that we face individually and level at each other. I have had for many years interests in several other fields i.e. political science, history, philosophy etc. I have, as I am sure many of you, been to numerous events/conferences or engaged in their related forums in which the pressures of putting forth your ideas, hypothesis or opinions resulted in environments in which we could all say are universally uncomfortable. But that is the price we pay for taking part. If something is out of bounds with regards to your hypothesis/theory, then it is the responsibility of those impassioned enough in this day and age, to engage you and your ideas with regards to the pursuit of truth. This is peer review and accountability is it's backbone.
That is not to say that it is polite or easy to give or receive but it goes a long way to advancing the art and science of anything that two or more people care enough to talk about.

Best regards, Rik
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Joy Lucas wrote:

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Shannon,
This is just not true!!!

At the time of Hahnemann (as before and as to-day) no doctor was
allowed tho make his own remedies in the State of Saxony (neiter in
other states, such as Prussia), it had then and has now to be done by
a pharmacist.

It was against the law! for H. to prepared the remedies himself.

Pharmacists would have complained to the courts against anyone doing
so - as they will now!

H. tried to get an excemption from the King for himself and homeopaths
in general and failed doing so. He did get that excemption from the
Duke of (whatever state Koethen was in) and therefore moved to
Koethen.

Let us not forget that he had very stron motive for doing so.

He sold the remedy - in a letter to this doctor in Duesseldorf, who
had complained about the economics of the craft, he specifically
mentioned this as being one of the benefits of homeopathic practice.

Small wonder, since H. used to give to his patients several sachets of
the "remedy" to be taken - of which only one was the verum. He charged
for all of them.

Hahnemann was never chased or mobbed out of any town. The one before
Leipzig he left because the French troups under Napoleon were coming
too close for comfort.

In yet other towns he did not have enough patients.

This is all described in detail in the book "The Life of Hahnemann" by
the presently greatest expert on Hahnemann, Prof. Robert Juette, head
of the Institute for the History of Medicine of the Bosch Foundation",
which is associated with the University of Stuttgart.

I don't know where those myths of a persecuted Hahnemann stem from -
but it is about time that we attempt to replace them by facts, as
found out by very meticulous and expert historical research.
V. Boenninghausen went that way and - although he was no MD but
practices under a special excemption (which did not include the right
to make his own remedies) - he converted MD's to homeopathy right and
left in Muenster and the rest of Westphalia (we know this e. g. from
one of Hahnemann's letter to v. B., who admired and praised him for
that)

Regards

Luise

--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Susan
My dear old departed mother (may God bless her soul and give me more of her wisdom) used to say the final physical effect of:
a- Kindly take a seat
b- SIT and
c- Get your a-s- down
is the same, however the emotional effect on the addressee varies greatly with each case as I trust you can appreciate.
I have asked people to treat others as they would wish to be treated.
However, if some people wish to be treated badly and thus treat others badly, then Minutus has no space for them.
This is an educational forum. You cannot educate by being rude or nasty.
Gentle and referenced responses are the best form of reply.
Rgds
Soroush

________________________________

From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of healthyinfo6@aol.com
Sent: 10 July 2009 00:50
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Minutus Exchanges
Soroush,

How did Hahnemann speak to his patients? To colleagues?

If Hahnemann shrunk like the violet you propose we be, we all would not be here as homeopathy would not exist.

You're perpetuating the relatively recent modern phenomenon that classical homeopathy must have this New Age, cuddly, huggie, warm & fuzzy feel. That patients must be handled with kid gloves or they'll break. This is what happens when you lump classical homeopathy with other alternative holistic camps.

Search the Organon 5th ed. The word "gentle" is used 8 times, "compassion" once and "radical" 18 times!

Why not have 2 Minuti? One rated G for Gentle, the other R for Radical?! Same like movies on DVD. You can get the child friendly or raw uncut versions. Those who want to battle it out, post to Minutus-R, those more timid, Minutus-G. Of course, the timid G's will be sneaking peeks at the R's.

For those so upset that they must unsubscribe, they may be more upset if they find out their "classical" homeopath may not know what they're doing because they are practicing homogenopathy, a blended version of classical and non-classical homeopathy.

Your Ghandi-like methods won't stop the attacks on classical homeopathy, either speak up or be silenced!

Susan

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Joy
I am not quite sure what you mean.
Every one who is on Minutus's lists gets the email unless they have asked to be removed or have blocked the emails themselves.
We have some active members and some people who just lurk!
I made my judgement by the number of people who asked to be de-registered stating that they could no longer stand the animosity.
Rgds
Soroush

________________________________

From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joy Lucas
Sent: 10 July 2009 15:33
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Minutus Exchanges
Soroush, just as a point of information regarding members and you appear to be keen to have membership grow and why not - how about something be done about all the bouncing members (actually not members anymore, they are defunct email addresses) - you have nearly a 1000 of them and that number reflects in the membership numbers. Surely it would be a better way to judge how a forum is growing by having true members and not a reflection on a large number who are not even getting the posts.

Joy

http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/

[Joy Lucas]

Dear Soroush, I am referring to the bouncing email addresses, clear for all to see in the members bouncing list, nearly a 1000. If I can see it I am sure you can. This is different from individual preferences where you choose to receive the posts or not, these are previous members who are no longer using these addresses for emails but at the same time they represent a member number. To be precise there are 938. It has been a big number for as long as I can remember, going back several years - just go to the members list and check out the 'bouncing' list from the top of the page. These email addresses represent members who are no longer present - if you were to remove them they wouldn't even know you had done so because they are inactive email addresses.

Joy

http://www.joylucashomeopathy.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/homeopathystudy/

[Helen Tucker]

One can engage vigorously in intellectual and scientific debate without
being uncivil.

One can attack ideas without attacking the person advocating the idea. For
example, you can say, "The idea you are advocating is downright dangerous,"
instead of "You are endangering the lives of your patients, you unethical
quack!" Or, you can say, "I find it this type of reasoning
hypocritical," instead of "You are downright hypocritical, judging me while
exempting yourself."

It isn't what is said as much as HOW it is said. Applying a few simple
communication skills makes the difference between debate and malice.

Nobody is against debate here. If we could tone down the personal attacks,
this list would be one of the best.

I had seriously considered leaving myself. I grew up in a verbally abusive
environment, and I am careful not to put myself in that kind of environment
again. Life is too short to spend that way, you know?

In the past, I had no regular internet access and had to receive everything
in digest. It is virtually impossible to sift out the objectionable posts
on digest. However, I now have unlimited internet, and took myself off
digest. Now I can delete at will and can stay on the list. But others
can't.

I appreciate Soroush's post, and second his sentiments.

Helen

[Irene de Villiers]

> something be done about all the bouncing members (actually not

That is a common misconception.
MANY good addresses bounce all the time and even "hardbounce".

For example if your ISP is down for maintenance even for a second
when an email arrives from Yahoo, it will hard-bounce as "no such
email address exists" is the technical message yahoo gets. It is
different from a busy signal which will soft-bounce and Yahoo will
try again but after a 2nd try it will hard bounce also.

In addition many foreign email sites cause hard bouncing as they do
not conform to the same internet protocols.

Inactive bouncing members are not using any resources, so why remove
them and risk losing a good member.
This issue is there for all lists, and is periodically discussed on
the list owner forum (ListHelp).

Yahoo has already automated a procedure to un-bounce people. They
will then loose a few emails while in bounce mode, but with no list
owner action needed they do revert to receiving them again. Bounces
are mostly temporary while some resolvable technical issue is
present, and unbouncing has been automated.

A few members may genuinely not be there any more (maybe literally if
they died) but bounce status will not find them and there is no known
reliable current way to find them, and them only.

It's a bit like wanting to find a lost book so you can toss it in the
garbagel Why waste the time.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Shannon Nelson]

Thanks, I find that inspiring to hear about!
And much to chew over, too...

[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Shannon,
No idea. And I doubt that anyone knows.
I do not know. Would (now) quite easy to find out.

A couple of years ago a book was published listing (all??) the
homeopathic MD's since Hahnemann's time up to ??, where they practiced
etc. Some light research could find out whether there were more of
them in Westphalia than in the rest of the country.

However, all in all, there were not too many homeopathic MD's,
probably because they were held in low esteem from their (majority)
allopatahic brethren. Their praxes seem to have flourished - so the
reason most likely was not economical.

But I think the reason why homeopathy thrived and held on was that it
was a grassroots therapy. Traditionall there used to be before that in
the villages and towns men and especially women who were knowledgeable
about herbal treatments etc. For the most part common folks used to go
to them for most of their ailments - they could not afford the fees of
the MD's. These people then expanded their remedy fundus (is that the
right expression?:-) to include (low potency, mostly 4x, 6x)
homeopathic remedies. There vere also people who got together in sort
of "Homeopathy Clubs", of which there were quite a few. So, when
"classical" homeopathy came in starting about 50 yeears ago this was
just the icing on a pre-existing cake:-)
and where did the "creative applications" come in,
I do not think the influenced anything.

I have no knowldge - no-one has - but I think that v. B. tried to
convince the other homeopaths to return to Hahnemann's methods.

Regards

Luise

--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[suriya56]

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Nash- Shannon" wrote:

Dear Shannon

The level of 'scientific' discussion is pretty low when people do not use reason and apply critical thinking when they reply.

If you notice,the more long winded the post, the less the reasoning and the more the haranguing.

Also , the more nastiness in the post , the less credible the poster becomes and the nastiness seems to cover the lack of ability to put forth sound arguments as well as indicate loss of objectivity by being clouded with emotion.

Which means that proper etiquette in the art of disagreement along with rational and sound arguments would increase the quality of this list.

regards

Suriya