Minutus

No problem with getting new remedies - may be we can even throw out
some of the useless old ones- as long as there is a method to the
madness...

when even provings done with great care and sacrifice to personal
health by the old masters are taking a beating, think about the wonder
drugs pulled out from the drawers of the (periodic) table or even
collected even before the prover had taken the medicine....or
meditating on a bottle of medicine ( which was created out of a
radionic machine or whatever)and noting down the symptoms...

That is the reason it is important to do modern provings with lower
potencies so that Avagadro and his relatives do not criticize the
provings... lots of our provings are from mother tinctures....or lower
dilutions - so that the source of the symptoms is not in doubt... how
would you know one is meditating on the medicine or the fish-fillet at
Burgerking...

bring the system to its least common denominator and prove it - then
go about gallivanting with the crystal balls...
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
their way
reasons I
adding
against
homeopathic
Apr;7

Dear H2002

I have always wondered what would happen if some of the guys who oppose Hom
got the info that some of prescriptions are based on dream proving - that
would in my view completely destroy any scientific footing!

Regards

Soroush

Mm, and how very *kind* of folks on this list to keep advertising those
matters! Hangin' the dirty laundry out on Fifth Avenue... "If" some
of those guys happen to be on the list... Which we have already seen
that they are... :-O
by those who are *trained* in the trade, and know *how* to evaluate and
use them. (And those who are not *interested* in a given tool, should
simply not use it.) I think that *we* should be concerned with *our*
business, and not get so obsessed about what other people, who don't
*know* "our business", will think about it, when they eavesdrop and get
to hear the rich snippets out of context...

Soroush, I understand your discomfort with dream provings. But the
"what will they think?" argument is IMO the very *least* meaningful of
those reasons! Even a remedy which enters by one of the "back
doors"--dream proving or purely clinical experience--has to be *used*
according to good ("scientific") homeopathic protocol, if it's to
produce good results.

(Anyway, just how is that less scientific than the fact that many
allopathic medicines were discovered by accident, hm? And marketed
without much actual understanding of what the stuff is doing, and how
it's affecting the *rest* of the person, other than that target organ
or process?)
Cheers,
Shannon

I think some of them know that dreams and meditation s are-

if even I , who has spent more than 25 years in studying homeopathy
find it hard to accept some of this radical methods, think about
these guys...

And no wonder we are being confused with Herbal medicines, native
medicines and what not...

When the world is not ready for even normally prepared potencies and
the similia principle and we are still struggling for survival, to
compound the gravity of the situation more and more by more esoteric
additions is not the way to go....

I hate to say this- but it is time to take a hard look at ourselves
and our methods- and find out where we went wrong and what
opportunities we are missing...

We cannot always say that allopaths are at fault... it needs 2 hands
to clap and certainly one of them is ours.... when the world is
being exposed to so many new infections and newer drug-resistant
strains of common bacteria, the time is ripe for homeopathy to get
into the regular "scientific medical" part of the therapy fabric and
make its name... we have the wherewithal - we just do not have the
attitude... it is time to get out of the gypsy's tent- if we go thru
the same route we are going now- we will end up getting the
simillimum out of chinese take-out fortune cookies....

Join the mainstream medicine even that needs giving up some of our
liberal freedom- there is a time for that- this is a time of
consolidation, time to think what we can achieve in a changing,
evidence-based, insurance-controlled medical field...

We can argue that by separating out of all this mumob-jumbo - loosey
goosey things- we are giving up a lot of support... but quantity is
not what counts- we as homeopaths should know that...

We might argue that we will lose ground by not confronting allopaths
and not considering them as enemies- but confrontation is NOT the
strength of homeopathy - we do not confront Staphylococcus to kill
it... we strengthen the constitution- we need to find ways to
strengthen our constitution ... homeopathy heal thyself
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Finrod" wrote:
oppose Hom
proving - that
Behalf
wonder
lower
how
fillet at
then
finishing
cultivating
already
*more* than
who've
been
with
homeopathy
few
are
again...beware
the
possible
wrote:
all the
"The
shows
about
that it
dogma.
not - have
accordance
wrote:
with
like are
were
trauma
because
wrote:
looking
sample sizes
blind
different
prepared
blind
2001
causes
has no
Nov;56
Homoeopathy and
regarding
document read
and/or
their use
its
incidental,
change your
single
13/12/2007

Shannon-

We do not have to be afraid of washing out the laundry in public-
why do we need the secrecy- let us be open about it- what do we have
to hide-

also we are not in a position to find fault the way things
are ...we can cry "wolf" till we become werewolves- nothing is going
to happen- we need to face the reality.
it is not fair that one system gets to hegemonize the medical field
and one system gets to demonize another in the name of science and
advancement.... but it is there... chalk it as another one of those
unfair things of everyday life - but that is not going to solve
anything for us....

Forget allopathy and its machinations... having a good double blind
study has nothing to do with allopathy - science and allopathy are
not synonymous- but getting the study done will serve to convince
people whether allopaths or otherwise...even some of us....we need
to move away from anecdotal to something more repeatable and
structured-
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
those
some
seen
evaluated
evaluate and
should
*our*
don't
and get
the
meaningful of
*used*
marketed
how
organ
who
proving -
On
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as
wrote:
Anthony
symptoms all
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Nov;56
website
their
or its
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a
Date:

In my experience, "meditative provings" are considered fringe even
among homeopaths; except that I think most homeopaths become willing
to accept remedies that came in by a "back door" such as this, *if*
they prove to be useful in practice. Which IMO is as it should be. In
any field, one can find people and perhaps practices and etc. that are
"fringe", or questionable, or arrived at by "surprising" or
inexplicable means. But we don't generally judge an entire field of
study on the basis of its "fringe"--*unless* we've got a pre-set
agenda, and a prior decision that we are looking for fault, not looking
for value.
? Which reality are you referring to?

"Repeatable and structured" sounds like just the goal we have all been
working toward, isn't it? Okay, you are saying that "meditative
provings" are neither... Okay, but then again, they are *not* a
central part of homeopathy. I don't understand why it's such a big
deal, when it's such a TINY, not to mention recent, part of homeopathy.
(And yes, some say not even that!)

What do you feel that we should be *doing*--just more studies, or ?
Shannon

in my experience, things like dream and meditative provings
are events to tickle the imagination. they make great teaching
tools to demonstate the nature of a proving in terms of producing
a body of symptoms. i recall jeremy scher handing out bits of
chocolate, having people eat them, and then reporting subjective
feelings that came up. in a room of about 50-60 people, it was
amazing the number of reactions that people had. there was
a core constellation of sx and then a number of fringe reactions.
the discussion afterwards was interesting, not only about what
a proving could uncover, but the idea of chocolate as a rx.
guess what rx he was presenting (lol)

tanya

Hi H,
We have good double-blind studies!!!

Get Michaeal Dean's book "The Trials of Homeopathy" as a very
scientific base, elect those
studies that meet the standards of good design and get a professional
(mathematician) statistics expert to evaluate them together for
significance.

I have yelled myself hoarse saying that - well, here is another
screech;-)

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Not to mention Dana's book. (I haven't looked at either, but both are
on my "someday, sigh" list. )

And--it's been DONE periodically! Various "meta-studies".
And--surprise--some show "Oh wow, it works!", while others (chosen, no
doubt, by different criteria) show, "Oh wow, it doesn't work!"

But--I'm not a reader of studies, sad to say; only enough to have
gathered the above "understanding"... Enough to have gathered that the
analysis of "scientific studies" seem to have become another grand
field for the operation of (was that Mark Twain's line?) "lies, damned
lies, and statistics." So... As H2002 is saying about
"new remedies", I am not sure that "more studies" is really fulfilling
the greatest need, unless we have made good use of the ones we already
*have*.
Shannon

be. In
are
looking

I am not denying that we have been prejudged. But it is not a secret
that we have lots of such fringes and so no one could be faulted for
having a wrong idea of what homeopathy is... remember how we ourselves
could not get around our hands around what homeopathy is... and Luise
was saying we have a parallel homeopathy without being homeopathy-
we have many such parallel universes....

well it is neither here nor there...fact is we are under the lens...
the question is how to validate ourselves... if we can do this
carrying all our fringes with us - it will be great...