Minutus

DearDear Dr. Roz,
Well, if you were to offer this course online somehow, I, for one, would happily sign up. It was something I had been hoping to be able to find as part of homeopathic training, but I have never been able to access a course of this nature. Maybe if you were to make it internationally accessible, local apathy would no longer be an obstacle?
Rosemary
Well, the 3 colleges in NZ teach anatomy physiology and pathology to the level of registered nurse; what is lacking is the differential diagnosis and the practice of clinical examination, on healthy and sick people.
The ideal situation would be a setting like Bastyr University, where all those subjects are part of the curriculum, no questions asked.
One big problem I see locally is apathy and inertia. A full course of clinical diagnostics was organised by the herbalists and the homeopaths were invited to attend..........never got the requested minimal participation, so it was cancelled. I have repeatedly offered to teach this either through the Council of Homeopaths or through the different colleges, I always got no further than a thank you and polite interest...........at some stage I decided I would not push the issue any more, you cannot force feed people.........unfortunately I have come to believe that the only way this teaching would be organised locally will be when a practitioner will be sued for incompetence and malpractice because he/she did not recognise some pathology.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

Sounds wonderful to me as well. As an RN for many years I have lots of experience in hospitals as part of a team but wonder if I am up for "differential diagnosis" as it were. I can refer out and my gut tells me when there is something seriously wrong but I have been too long in a hospital setting!Thanks, Rosemary for suggesting it.
Sue

Honestly you do not need a course online.
You can study the book by Barbara Bates A guide to physical examination, the old book French Index of differential diagnosis and Hamilton Bailey's Demonstration of physical signs in clinical surgery along with reading the Merck manual from cover to cover.
Also BIHUSA has a good distance learning DD course, but you still need the books, or others, there are many published, and although I would enjoy, time permitting, to write a course and earn some $$ from teaching it, everything that you need to know is already there.
Then you need to find a nice GP that would allow you to examine a few patients with him/her and practice some skills, or volunteer or learn EMT and work part time for ambulances.....good skills practice.
It looks like a lot to ask, right? Yes because there is a lot to know, but start with the books and do examine all your patients from head to toe, practice on your family and friends.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

I do not know when you trained, Sue, but my wife is a RN too, finished training in 1976.........her diagnostic skill is wonderful........picked up a bronchiolitis in our then baby when I was away and has diagnosed many times very dangerous conditions in the elderly home she know works in that were missed by the GP.
To tell you that your training is probably more practical than the one of today's GPs and that you have to trust yourself.............and read the books I mentioned in another email, as a refresher.....
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

Thank]]]]Thanks, Dr. R., for the book recommendations and that to BIHUSA -- I'll check them out. I've been fortunate, personally, in being able to work with an "old-time" physician (trained in Switzerland in the 1950s), from whom I've learned a lot about medical differential diagnosis -- but yes -- there is a LOT to learn -- one of those things that could take a lifetime of ongoing study.
I expect that knowing some basic facts about the subject has increased my awareness in general about how critical it can be to understand possible reasons for symptoms , both in terms of the patient's safety and in terms of the physical Repertory rubrics. Unfortunately, there's a lot of "folklore" about the reasons for symptoms at least in this country among people who do their own research online and who frequent a wide variety of "alternative healers." So people often come to the homeopath's office with a bunch of non-medical but medical-sounding "diagnoses that they're sure are credible, and that they use as the explanation of what's going on -- theorizing, but not knowing they are doing so.
Of course, as you said, some of these bogus diagnoses, unfortunately, also come from the patients' MD. One hears the diagnosis, observes the patient, and thinks "No way!" But these ersatz "diagnoses" often lead the patient to explain their symptoms in ways that appear to involve organ systems that one ultimately realizes are red herrings. It offers an interesting challenge to homeopaths and medical people alike.
Rosemary
Honestly you do not need a course online.
You can study the book by Barbara Bates A guide to physical examination, the old book French Index of differential diagnosis and Hamilton Bailey's Demonstration of physical signs in clinical surgery along with reading the Merck manual from cover to cover.
Also BIHUSA has a good distance learning DD course, but you still need the books, or others, there are many published, and although I would enjoy, time permitting, to write a course and earn some $$ from teaching it, everything that you need to know is already there.
Then you need to find a nice GP that would allow you to examine a few patients with him/her and practice some skills, or volunteer or learn EMT and work part time for ambulances.....good skills practice.
It looks like a lot to ask, right? Yes because there is a lot to know, but start with the books and do examine all your patients from head to toe, practice on your family and friends.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

Tanya Marquette wrote:

Gosh Tanya I have to say this does not sit well with me at all!
On the contrary - I am forever sending a client back to the vet or to a
2nd vet for a better diagnosis than the one the client comes with to me.

If the diagnosis is cancer when it should be hyperthyroidism - or if it
is bowel disease when it should be FIP - or if it is fluid due to heart
failure as opposed to fluid from cancer - (and the list of examples is
as long as my list of cases over the years - I will not be able to
repertorize correctly. Indeed the majority of the materia medica rubrics
are really to do with diagnostics - especially the illness-specific
symptoms - and while I would never rep without mind and generals - I
also would never leave out the actual illness being presented!!!

It's just not possible to repertorize correctly without knowing what's
actually wrong - and then being able to track back to why it is wrong.
How would I even differentiate between a nutrient deficiency in the diet
and a pathology or an injury? No remedy supplies missing nutrients:-))

I think it would be grossly misleading to suggest that diagnostics were
not relevant to every case!
In those cases where the vet is unable to diagnose - one still uses
whatever blood work, lab values, test results etc are available to try
to narrow down the options.
It's not professional to work in the dark however is it?
I do not think homeopaths need to know whatever doctors or veterinarians
know by any means - but they DO need to know what information is
relevant to them and how to make sure they get it.
There's nothing wrong with credentials IF they prove the right things.
It's what they6 signify that matters - not whether they are "letters" or
not:-)) Our client have a right to know for example (IMO) whether they
are going to vet who went to a few weekend seminars - or to someone with
many years of study and in depth repertorizing ability.
Credentials can tell the client that important difference.
The fact that we have no such differentiation for clients currently - is
one reason homeopathy is getting a worse and worse name in USA!

Do you go to a heart surgeon with candy-striper qualifications? OR do
you want your life in the hands of someone who can prove they studied
the *appropriate* subjects and have an appropriate cerdential?

Credetials can indeed be waved around in a meaningless fashion - but it
pays to know what ones are worth their salt and in which way. It's not
great to pretend they do not matter.
People worth their salt will go and GET the appropriate letters, as they
will be proud to uphold the quality of their work and show it really IS
high quality )

I stress *appropriate* letters. Not ones that prove something less relevant.
For example homeopaths do NOT need to be surgeons - as do MDs and DVMs.

NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Irene ,
this is what has horrified me when I was lecturing for a few years in
naturopathic colleges. Students did not know when not to prescribe or the
pathology or lack of in what they were treating and when they should send
patients for tests. I heard all sorts of very worrying treatments that would
have been prescribed instead of the patient having a proper diagnosis first.
Homeopathic students unfortunately were sometimes the 'worst' in this aspect
because they seemed to feel that didn't need to know.

Homeopathy is my first love but I feel we all need to prescribe with
caution. We in the main are not doctors - we might have more appropriate
treaments but in general they have more appropriate tests. At the least we
should have some idea of what we are treating.

Beverly

www.eternalhealthconcepts.com

eternalhealth@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Hi Beverley,
I have to admit I have a bit of prejudice against naturopathy schools
in that the curriculum tends to have about 8 credit hours each, of many
"disciplines" including homeopathy - and about 8 hours of homeopathy
training is just enough to become dangerous rather than proficient - in
my opinion. It gives a false sense of competency - the same false
competency I also see in vets who do the 4 or 5 weekend seminar course
turning them (supposedly) into "homeopathic veterinarians".

It is truly scary what prescriptions fly with such minimal training.
I see it a lot on some lists where naturopaths make homeopathy
suggestions - with apparent great confidence in their ability!

This is why we need to define well, what level of proficiency IS
appropriate before someone may call themselves a homeopath. A few
weekends or a few credit hours - just doesn't cut it.
I'd say not so much with caution as with knowledge and logic.
We need to know what's in the best interests of the client - and in my
eyes, failing to *ensure* a proper diagnosis, or at least gather all
possible information towards it - is hard to show as being in the best
interests of the client.
I absolutely agree. They also have better clinical research on pathology
- and it's all readily available on line with easy search engines.
So too is the interpretation of lab tests, descriptions of diseases,
standard allopathic treatments, drug and chemical descriptions with
risks and side effects - etc - etc.
Th information world is literally at our fingertips - we need to use it:-)
We can be clever about it. I believe strongly in obtaining enough
information about any case to feel I know what I am doing and why, and
that I am not functioning in the dark or with blinkers on or by
guesswork. Whenever I am in any doubt, my automatic rule is to recognize
(to assume) that I lack information somewhere - and to take time out to
figure where that is and to obtain the missing puzzle pieces.

To me that is a technique of approach which should be taught to
homeopaths in training.

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Irene,

I agree with all you have said except that the students to which I was
referring, in more than one college had over 100 hrs of specific homeopathic
training and were towards the end of 300 hrs of training in health
assessment, clinic and medical assessment skills and almost at the end of 3
years with over 2500 hrs of training in health care. In many of these
students it seemed the lack of natural mindmapping skills to come to an
overall view of the patient's condition and sometimes an attitude problem in
feeling that they didn't need to know more - that with homeopathy assessing
symptoms only was on its own enough.

Regards

Beverly

Irene

Dr. Roz,
I wonder whether some of this could be done through the Homeopathic
Symposium? I know one can do only so much without the "hands-on", but
do you think that at least some of it could be done in that
(computer-based, pre-recorded) format--and a fuller understanding of
what else we should be seeking out? Could be illustrated with cases in
which the knowledge was important, and e.g. some such as Irene gave us
with figuring out remedies for the FIP kitties could be "inspiring".
Shannon