Minutus

Hi Irene,
ok - is not relevant
It is similar.

In gout there is a condition of high uric acid levels in the blood and
this leads to formation of crystals in joints and also in kidneys (see
below)

In the cat cases there is this poison. (It is probably in the blood) -
in any case it leads to formation of crystals in the kidneys.

So this part is similar, and this part is what causes the main problem
(kidney failure)

Is not necessarily in Berberis either.
In a case of gout attack with pain in the kidneys, or in the case of
chronic gout where there is an attack of kidney pains, it is quite
reasonable to assume that the pain results from crystals in the
kidneys.

Since most of the crystals form in the joints it is also easy to
understand why the crystals in the kidneys do not usually cause acute
renal failure. Still the mechanism just may be quite similar.
Right - in a healthy kidney they are filtered out. Wherre the kidney
is not working, as in kidney failure (acute or chronic), uremia should
occur.
This also has its parallel in gout

*************

Relation between creatinine and uric acid excretion.

Y Nishida
Health Administration Center, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies,
Japan.

Abstract

The relation between creatinine and uric acid metabolism was analysed
in 77 male patients with primary gout and 62 healthy male subjects.
Significant positive correlations between 24 hour urinary creatinine
and uric acid excretion were shown in both groups. The mean urinary
creatinine and uric acid excretions in the patients with gout were
significantly increased as compared with those of normal male
controls. These results suggest that there is a close correlation
between creatinine and uric acid synthesis. In addition, it seems that
accelerated uric acid synthesis seen in some patients with gout is due
to increased creatinine synthesis. (From Annals of Rheumatic Diseases)

**************

a

Here is some abstracts about gout crystals in kidneys.

************

An abnormality in handling uric acid can cause attacks of painful
arthritis (gout attack), kidney stones, and blockage of the kidney
tubules
with uric acid crystals, leading to kidney failure. (Reports From
National Arthritis Meeting)

-------------

* Farebrother DA,
* Pincott JR,
* Simmons HA,
* Warren DJ,
* Dillon MJ,
* Cameron JS.

Gout is principally a disease of middle-aged men. There has been a lot
of
discussion over the cause of the renal lesion, whether it is age,
hypertension or crystal induced, as single factors or in combination.
We
have recently been able to study renal biopsies from three related
young
women with an hereditary gout, and another girl with
2,8-dihydroxyadenine
crystal nephropathy. All were normotensive. These findings were
compared
with the findings of a crystal-induced nephropathy in pigs. In the
renal
biopsies many stages of acute and chronic nephritis were found which
were
similar to the crystal nephropathy in pigs. We concluded that the
cause of
the original lesion in the women was crystal deposition in the
tubules,
that crystals were not necessary to keep a non-specific nephritis
active
and that age and hypertension need not be contributory factors. (from
PubMed)

--------------

Urinary Tract Disease: - Ultimately, kidney disease due to
hyperuricemia
may be the most critical complication of gout. Uric acid crystals
accumulate within the substance of the kidney and can lead to a
progressive decline in kidney function and cause nephropathy.
Alternatively, a sudden blockage of the flow of urine through the
ureters
due to a precipitation of uric acid crystals can develop (acute
obstructive uropathy). (From Internet Health Library)

************
Below is from Hering's Guiding Symptoms of Berberis.

URINARY ORGANS. [21] [Berb.]

All just fyi.

Regards

Luise

In lumbar and renal region a pressing straining, shooting or bruising
pain, extending to thighs, with stiffness, numbness and sensation of
warmth, which prevents raising body and rising up.
Pressive or tensive pain in region of loins and kidneys, sometimes on
one side, sometimes on both or frequently across small of back, at
times extending downward into posterior portion of pelvis, of thighs,
and even to calves, with a feeling of stiffness and lameness, or
swelling of back or lower extremities.
Sticking or sticking-pressing pain, at times slight, at times very
sensitive, in one or other lumbar region, now in a small spot which is
a simple sticking, now in a larger place, when it is chiefly pressing,
either exactly in region of kidneys, or at times extending above or
below, but especially outward, so that it extends around side of
abdomen in front or to region of hips, sometimes also in spine and
extending down to small of back, and region of bladder and groins,
sometimes fine, sometimes dull ; sticking sometimes extends from
region of kidneys straight forward into abdomen, and at times with a
numb, paralyzed, bruised sensation, frequently returning and lasting a
long time.
Tearing pain in region of both kidneys, soon after rising in morning,
which extends sideways and forward, both upward and downward, so that
whole region of back between pelvis and thorax is affected.
Tearing, or tearing-sticking pain in region of loins and kidneys,
usually when standing.
Cutting pain from left kidney into bladder, urethra, and in penis.
Stitches from kidneys to bladder and urethra.
Stinging, burning, gnawing pain on a small spot near kidneys,
increased by pressing hard upon, and moving frequently downward or
forward.
Stitching or tearing in renal region and adjoining parts, with
numbness and soreness, increased by hard external pressure.
A sticking-digging, or digging-tearing pain in one or other kidney
region, as if it was suppurating ; ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Luise Kunkle wrote:

Hi yes I know the condition.
The toxin willbe in the blood yes after ingestion, but the crystals?
The crystals do not form till it gets to the kidneys, due to the unique
pH characteristics of carnivore urine, which cause precipitation of many
kinds of crystal if ther urine is alkaline - and we know that it IS
alkaline after this toxin is ingested. (That's consistent wiht the high
creatinine ovserved which is alkaline.)
Yes.
No, not similar.
Gout has crystals forming in the joints due top crystals forming in the
blood - this has crystals forming in the kidneys not the blood - due to
kidney pH issues - no joint crystals for example.
Gout (and Ber) involves slow failure not acute failure as here.
Maybe not but you used gout as a "similar" example ans that has VERY
painful joints.
I do not see Ber in this syndrome - it comes up 89th only in the
repertorizing, using only 11 key rubrics.
That's a very poor showing in my view.

What rubrics got you to Berberis?
For me that's the bottom line:-)
Making BErb a NON-simillimum.
Not necessarily. There is not time for that to occur here. Nitrogenous
substances as in uremia, come from metabolising protein and none is
eaten or metabolised here, so that the only protein is from muscle
breakdown to use for energy as glucose - and which DOES have some amino
acid by-products - but not as the *casue* of the problem as is more
usual - here it is a *result* of the problem - oprovided teh anial lives
long enough after the kidney failure to develop the syndrome.

I am looknig at th *casue* of the syndreom to prevent thagt - rather
than at a side effect of the syndrome as a primary reason to choose a
remedy.
Side effects like later uremia may also be relevant - but it stands to
reason to me that if the remedy handles *acute* renal failure - it will
likely also help the resultant uremia.
At least - that is my thinking:-)
I see it differently. Uremia will likely occur sooner in gout, as part
of the main syndrome - not so much as an after-effect.
We have a rubric for high creatinine but I suspect it could use a bit
more development - so it is nice if there - but not eliminative.
Some comments below on the research you sent on gout:
So far I follow the research.
Not necessarily.
That's a jump.
Just because both uric acid and creatinine are raised in gout - does not
mean they are automatically related. They may be raised in gout for
different and unrelated reasons.
Why assume there is a related reason?
It "seems"?
When I see "seems" in a research paper, it smacks of assumption.
How does he "seem" to see a connection between increased uric acid
excretion and increased creatinine. There may be a completely different
mechanism involved.
He has shown no actual connection - just made an assumption with no
evidence.

Maybe there IS an association in gout patients - but nothing in THIS
paper shows evidence of it.
In aminopterin toxicity there is no abnormality in uric acid handling....
I've no problem with the concept that it is the crystals that do kidney
damage in gout.
But that is not acute renal failure; there is a lot more to gout than that.
Luise - we need to repertorize from the ACTUAL symptoms - not to see
what remedies work for a *different* disease like gout:-)
--------------

This is my point - it is not acute failure from crystals.
Also not renal failure and also not a symptoms of the current condition.
I appreciate the references - but I personally see this as backwards
thinking - looking at the remedy to try to fit it to the disease - the
biggest mistake homeopaths make in my opinion - when we really need to
look at the presenting disease and find via rubrics, what remedy is the
simillimum.
I thank you - but it does not fit the case.
I read it all, and throughout it speaks of variations in pain, changes
of position and lots of issues that involve TIME - one time this, and
one time that, and joint pain.
Nothing acute and sudden anywhere. Nothing that fits.

Thank you for the detailed ideas.
I sincerely think we need to use basics though - and look at the
presenting case and the rubrics needed to arrive at a remedy - and not
to work backwards from remedy guesses. You never get a good remedy
working backwards:-)
Well almost never...

NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Hi Irene,

my idea/reasonings were not meant ot compete with Lachesis or any
other remedy.

It's just a different aspect and I posted it for what it may be worth
or not.

If Lachesis or some other remedy found by your or someoone else's
approach turns out to work, my aspect is superfluous.

In case it does not, may be it is woth considering - among probably
others. Although I hope, of course, that the cases now at hand will
turn out to be the only ones.

Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

Luise Kunkle wrote:

Of course and thank you.
I hope so too, and I - touch wood - have not heard of more new ones the
past few days - I just hope the word got out well.

(One cat where I suggested Lach is now fine. I hope to heqr on the other
one soon. A third is still on IVs at the vet clinic and they will not
have homeopathy at the same time.)

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."