Minutus

In ih COOD there were several articles about Hydrocyanic acid used in extreme situations where survival an issue.Just wonder of any relevance here
http://www.interhomeopathy.org/index.ph ... 6cf865e05/ Jean

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Irene de Villiers wrote:
Irene-

Boericke MM - under Terebinthina- First line says-
Has a selective affinity for BLEEDING MUCOUS SURFACES (in italics)..

You might be right in saying Lachesis is more appropriate- but I think
Terebinth definitely causes renal failure. It can cause renal damage
and hematuria and if prolonged or if the dose is massive can cause
renal failure.
In petcenter.com in the following url
http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/kf.html ( which discusses renal failure)
I found this piece-

EXTERNAL TOXINS (INGESTED TOXINS):Straining to urinate...
One of the most devastating external toxins that causes kidney failure
in dogs and cats is antifreeze that contains ethylene glycol. It
doesn't take much of this sweet tasting liquid to prompt crystals to
form in the delicate tubules of the kidney's filtration systems.
Massive doses of Vitamin D can be nephrotoxic (poisonous to the
kidneys), rodent poison such as D-Con can allow hemorrhaging into the
kidneys, the Easter Lily plant can be toxic if ingested and heavy
metal toxicity such as from lead, mercury, cadmium, and arsenic all
pose a very real threat to kidney tissue. Other renal toxins include
thallium and turpentine. There is evidence that raisins/grapes can be
nephrotoxic to dogs.

Considering that Terebinth is an ingested poison similar to what is
happening here it is much more suitable.
Also Acute renal failure that follows snake bite ( Lachesis or other
Viperidae) is due to blood changes than due to mucous membrane
destruction.

"Pathogenesis of renal lesion is mainly due to disseminated
intravascular coagulation, intravascular haemolysis, hypotension,
rhabdomyolysis and myoglobunuria. Direct nephrotoxicity of venom and
hypersensitivity to ASV also have been implicated. "

The refuses to eat rubric is not a good selection Im afraid. It will
mislead you. It is too small a rubric to use in a situation in which
refusing to eat is to be expected. It is a common symptom in a
condition involving such severe ulceration of the digestive tract.
Anyway it is a rubric more useful in Anorexia Nervosa type situations
than ones in which the cause is pathology of the digestive system and
ulceration of the mucous membranes. I agree with Joy and the Nameless
One about Terebinthia. There is a very strong case for it. A 'small'
remedy with a narrow, strong affinity will generally serve you better
than a polychrest in extreme situations like this. I dont know why but
its my experience.

I read what you said about hand feeding but still dont think you
should give the remedies in this rubric too much weight.

Joy Lucas wrote:

Do you?
Your charm is showing, but I'd rather see your reasoning?
Perhaps your repertory is incomplete in this area:
We are not looking at kidney failure which is common in cats and dogs
due to poor feeding habits, and is a slow chronic process - but we ARE
looking for *acute* renal failure from crystal physical damage.
Lachesis is listed in my repertory as one of the more prominent remedies
among the 24 listed for acute kidney failure - but I actually do not
consider prominence except maybe in small remedies. [Ref re Lach: Farokh
Jamshed, Bombay, India 1957.] Lach is less "prominent" in chronic kidney
failure, but is there too.

I also question your assertion about "minor links" (to kidneys or
anything else.)
I think you misunderstand how to interpret remedies. When the remedy
picture contains the rubric, then the remedy will work for that rubric
regardless of prominence - when it is a match to the overall case. There
is no such thing as a "minor link" in any remedy - either the rubric is
there and will work or it is not there (and even then it still might
work in a well matched case, it just means it is not documented to
work). Here there are enough remedies that are KNOWN to work in acute
renal failure to allow for choosing one of them - the one that best
matches the rest of the case.

You have presented no argument for any other approach:-))
Always.
But you have not done that here.
Lachesis is the remedy I selected mindfully that has *acute* renal
failure plus the other sx - and so no, I did not "throw it away
mindlessly". I checked when I took out the trash this evening:-)

Mine rationale is:
Half the remedies in the repertory have kidney symptoms. It's the
*SPECIFIC* kidney affinity that matters to differentiate which kidney
remedy to use of those.
Lachesis has:
KIDNEYS - RENAL FAILURE - acute (I consider this rubric eliminative)
It also has corroborating rubrics for the pain of the crystals boring
holes in the kidneys:
MIND - ANGUISH - pain; from - Abdomen; in
KIDNEYS - PAIN - extending to - Bladder - stitching pain
GENERALS - INJURIES - Soft parts, of
GENERALS - VIOLENT COMPLAINTS
GENERALS - WOUNDS - penetrating, punctured

You've not presented an argument for any better matching remedy?
Surely that would be appropriate since the objective here is to help the
suffering animals? (I hope!)
Glad you like it.

Namaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

hahnemannian2002 wrote:
I was referring to the intestines which have mucous membranes - not the
kidneys which have a different structure. There is bleeding in ONE case
of intestines just before death
The main problem with this toxin is apparently the physical crystals
that form in the kidneys, painfully....not the mucus membranes of the
gut, which is a secondary effect in some.
The key here is prolonged or massive.
But we are talking *acute* renal failure, with 40ppm.
This is not a ppm thing.
Ethylene glycol is sweet tasting to cats, it attracts them and they
drink it in volume (not in ppm) and it clogs the kidneys in a major way
- in bulk you could say.
I agree there are lots of kidney toxins. I am forever on about toxions
in pet food thatg cause kidney or other damage. even incorrect ratios of
amino acids can cause harm to kidneys. But all that takes tiem and is
dose dependant rather than being an acute case as here.
I'm hung up on the acute issue here:-))
I consider it is very relevant.
I also consider the mechanism relevant.
Ter is turpentine.
How is it similar to aminopterin?
And why does Ter not appear in the acute kidney failure rubric?

I think I know why.
IF we look at the safety data sheet for Ter in animals it says:
"Effects on Animals: Turpentine is an eye, mucous membrane, and skin
irritant and a central nervous system depressant in animals. "
...Cats exposed to a 540- to 720-ppm concentration of turpentine
exhibited signs of immediate eye and mucous membrane irritation and had
mild convulsions; at a concentration of 1440 ppm, they developed
paralysis within 150 to 180 minutes [HSDB 1989]. No adverse effects were
noted in dogs exposed to 180 ppm for 3.5 hours/day for 8 days [ACGIH
1986, p. 615]; however, raising the concentration to 818 ppm and
exposing the dogs for 3.5 to 4.5 hours caused nausea, incoordination,
mild paralysis, and weakness [Clayton and Clayton 1981, p. 3245]."

For humans it says:
"Effects on Humans: Turpentine is a skin, eye, mucous membrane, and
upper respiratory tract irritant in humans. It may also cause skin
sensitization and central nervous system, gastrointestinal, and urinary
tract effects. The lowest estimated oral dose reported to be lethal in
humans is 441 mg/kg [RTECS 1989]. Exposure to a 75-ppm concentration for
3 to 5 minutes irritates the nose and throat, and exposure to a 175-ppm
concentration irritates the eyes and may be considered intolerable by
human volunteers [Grant 1986, p. 961; Proctor, Hughes, and Fischman
1988, p. 500]. Ingestion of turpentine causes a burning pain in the
mouth and throat, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain,
excitement, ataxia, confusion, stupor, seizures, fever, and tachycardia
and may cause death due to respiratory failure [Proctor, Hughes, and
Fischman 1988, p. 500]. Toxic glomerulonephritis and bladder irritation,
with hematuria, albuminuria, oliguria, and dysuria, have been associated
with overexposure to the vapor of turpentine..."

So we see some kidney effects on humans - but no acute ones. Ter is
mainly toxic in other ways. Even adding the actual proving symptoms does
not put it in the acute kidney failure category.

As a remedy with 64 kidney rubrics that specifically mentions *chronic*
kidney failure - but not acute kidney failure among the 64 - it does not
give me a lot of confidence in its PROVEN ability in acute kidney failure.

Nor does it look a good match for aminopterin to me even if I ignored
the acute kidney failure rubric (which I can not do). It has 4 of 11
best rubrics only:-)

Also - Why do you think that comparing poisons is a more valid way to
"repertorize" than the formal way of seeking appropriate rubrics to
match the case?

Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

robin9168 wrote:

I've had good experience with it in the past with cats in particular -
but it is only 1 of 11 rubrics I used - and since then adding more
points more to LAch, and away from Ter.
I explained the difference already so will not repeat that here.
What's common is not eating - and having no appetite.
Or being hungry but unable to eat.
Failing to eat is common, but not the same.
Refusing to eat in animals is NOT common - it happens within a few hours
of death in terminal cases and otherwise almost never.
Owners who know this have remarked on the weird refusal to eat - it is
strong sx.
There are lots of subtly different rubrics.
This one is firm refusal. And it is very unusual here.
Ordinary kidney failure in cats involves poor appetite but not refusal
to eat.
Refusing to eat when food is put in the mouth - is specific and clear
here. We can't toss it out just because we do not like the symptom or we
do not like the rubric. It's a strong feature.
The rubric has 40 remedies - I consider that a reasonable number to
use the rubric.
Except that is not the cause.
The cause is this toxin making crystals in the kidneys.
Many dog owners have told me that the dog smells the food and refuses to
eat it - before it gets poisoned. So some are detecting the toxin - and
others have eaten it THEN refuse to eat anything more - and I suspect it
is fear of being poisoned - again LAch is appropriate.

I agree with Joy and the Nameless

Using what rubrics?
I give proper balance to the size of a remedy when repertorizing, and
give precedence to small ones if appropriate - but I DO repertorize.
And I see too few rubrics for Ter here.
Thank you for the idea, but I am not convinced, and feel it fits well
despite considering your thoughts on it.

NAmaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

Yes, I know it well, used it often. I gave good reasons as have others
- ulceration, haemorrhage, acute renal failure + also the ecchymosis
under the skin, the purpura haemorrhagica, lethargy, inability to eat,
affinity to mucous surfaces etc etc re posts from others

you have placed great emphasis on the kidneys in these cases and with
such a dominant sx if true then the affinity would be much higher with
regard to the simillimum, other wise it is guess work (which is what
this is until a rx is prescribed) - a poison such as lachesis will
eventually attack the kidneys as it will all organs in time - hundreds
of rx have affinity to kidney failure

I do understand how reps and MM's work, believe it or not - I've been
practising for a few weeks now, got the hang of it

repping an animal case can't be complete for obvious reasons so
observation, causation, pathology and anatomy and then of course
knowing homeopathic materia medica is sometimes more to the point,
especially when you have to think on your feet in acute cases

but even 'your' repping should have enabled Terebinthina to come
through with or without flying colours and besides it is the materia
medicas that remain our most valuable tool, over and above the reps

I suggested an important rx for you to consider Irene, which is imo a
better matching rx so don't pull the 'caring for animal routine' out,
you don't want to consider the rx cos you've made your mind up on Lachesis

but using 'delusion posioned', hmm - I rest my case. Joy

http://www.joylucashomeopathy

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Irene de Villiers wrote:
remedies
Farokh
kidney
There
report
the

this link does not seem to work. what is the month/year of these articles?
tanya

Thanks, you might be correct- I have not seen a case of this- so you
have much more first hand knowledge.

I think the action of Aminopterin is acting as an anticoagulant snake
poisons might closely mimic its action

At the same time I also point out that in Boericke- both Lachesis and
Tereb are given under Acute parenchymatous nephritis - Tereb in italics.
In acute congestion - Tereb is there, not Lach

Pain in Renal region Lach is in Burning, Drawing, Neuralgic(radiating)
Tereb is in all those three + Cutting (digging and boring), Pressing,
Aching...

It is in pyelitis ( which can cause renal failure), Lach is not..
In Knerr-
it is under both Urine Suppressed and Decreased; Lach is not under
Suppressed.

Which repertory gives Acute Renal Failure? That is a good one to have.
But I am not sure if you want to use it as an eliminative rubric since
most of the older repertories might not have this rubric and so you
would miss some remedies falling out the cracks. Possibly Urine
Suppressed and Decreased might be good eliminative rubrics.

I am not saying Lach is not good- in fact Lach, Crotalus etc. are
appropriate. Just pointing out that we do not have specific remedies
and if you have a group of candidate remedies to consider, Tereb is a
possibility.
Since this is a poisoning case already with full fledged pathology.
Many of the rubrics you have selected are repertory additions only
from pathology / post mortem / clinical experience.

For example most of the anti coagulant action of snake remedies could
not have been from provings but from actual bites. Bleeding rectum,
bleeding mouth etc. are also mostly from toxicological reports and not
pathogenetic provings.

While we are at it - does Aminopterin have anti-coagulant action and
all this bleeding subsequent to that? Then why should we not consider
that as a general rubric?

Regarding the refusal to eat - is it not secondary to acute renal
failure? And if it is so - is not that important? How would you
differentiate this from loss of appetite in animals?

Thanks for a good discussion. Once again I think Lachesis is a good
choice. Just wanted to discuss the rest of the remedies for consideration.

The importance of pre-accidental symptoms in life-threatening situations
by Maartje Kuiper January2006
maybe bring up http://www.interhomeopathy.org/index.ph ... l/cat/C25/ and do a search for Hydrocyanic Ac that is how I got several other articles
or http://www.interhomeopathy.org/ then search It was just something remembered and wanted to look at again, Jean