Clathrates

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

If anyone tells you that clathrates do not exist or are a figment of
imagination, here is what physicists do with them now:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... ce+News%29

Not homeopathy per se.

Joe.

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD. "The greatest enemy of any science is a closed
mind". www.naturamedica.webs.com

[John R. Benneth]

Hey Joe - Thanks for posting . . I think it demonstrates that clathrates are super conductors . . I suggested it during the Cavendish PPT talk and nobody seemed to object. Here's another view of the same Vienna University of Technology story from Science Daily . ..

Creating Electricity With Caged Atoms
Sep. 22, 2013 — "A lot of energy is wasted when machines turn hot, unnecessarily heating up their environment. Some of this thermal energy could be harvested using thermoelectric materials; they create electric current when they are used to bridge hot and cold objects. At the Vienna University of Technology (TU Vienna), a new and considerably more efficient class of thermoelectric materials can now be produced. It is the material's very special crystal structure that does the trick, in connection with an astonishing new physical effect; in countless tiny cages within the crystal, cerium atoms are enclosed. These trapped magnetic atoms are constantly rattling the bars of their cage, and this rattling seems to be responsible for the material's exceptionally favourable properties." FULL STORY AT: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... ce+News%29

As I understand it the clathrate cage structure, the "rattling atom," is thought to be elemental in heat diffusion, but I think its a red herring, for it doesn't explain pneumaticalluy nucleated clathrates having increased electrostatic indices. I think the "favourable properties" in clathrates are due to skin depth.
John
In a message dated 9/23/2013 3:12:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jroz@ihug.co.nz writes:
EXTRAORDINARY MEDICINE

John Benneth, Homeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com

SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

Love people, expect them to love you back.

[Ellen Madono]

I asked my husband who has a background in physics about clathrates. The following is his reply.
Begin forwarded message:

[Tanya Marquette]

There seems to be a missing point in your husbands explanation---Succussion.
It seems clear that the intense shaking of the dilution has a physical effect on the
molecules of diluted remedy.
t
From: Ellen Madono
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:19 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Minutus] Clathrates

I asked my husband who has a background in physics about clathrates. The following is his reply.

Begin forwarded message:

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

That is where we need research in physics' labs with proper protocols, all the rest is speculative, as I keep repeating.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD. "The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind". www.naturamedica.webs.com

[Roger B]

If you start with the assumption that homeopathy works, then it is natural to deduct that potentization does something to the space occupied by the remedy.

If you start with the assumption that only physical things are real, then it is natural to deduct that homeopathy cannot work.

If one experiences homeopathy working, then one will eventually be forced to rethink what is real.

Roger
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: tamarque@earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 09:34:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Clathrates
There seems to be a missing point in your husbands explanation---Succussion.
It seems clear that the intense shaking of the dilution has a physical effect on the
molecules of diluted remedy.
t
From: Ellen Madono
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:19 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Minutus] Clathrates
I asked my husband who has a background in physics about clathrates. The following is his reply.

Begin forwarded message:

[John R. Benneth]

In a message dated 9/24/2013 6:23:15 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ellen.madono@gmail.com writes:
Before anything more is said, it should be stated that we're obviously dealing with an electrical phenomenon, which is easily forgotten in discussing the structural distinctions wiothin homeopathic remedies. With that said, it should be pointed out, sooner or later, that Nobel prize-winning chemist Linus Pauling proposed that the narcotic effects of alcohol are due to the formation of clathrate hydrates in the brain.
University of Cincinnati Professor Dale W. Schaefer, in the Chemical and Materials Engineering Department of UC's College of Engineering and Applied Science, thinks Pauling is wrong, but presumably only about the nomenclature of "clathrate," not the effects of what Schaeffer proposes as a cage-like hydrogen-bonded structure, which he says is a liquid analogue of a clathrate.
"Water alcohol mixtures are known to form clathrate hydrates below -80 degrees C," he says, "which is why we proposed a transient cage-like structure in the liquid at room temperature."

Schaeffer's comments come from collaborative tests the U of C produced with Moscow State University that showed humans are able to distinguish differences in tastes between vodkas, due to their clathrate content.
To my knowledge there is no paper that explains explain why clathrates or their analogues have narcotic effects and have taste distinctions, but I believe it is due to the increased conductivity and EM effects brought about by hydrogen bond structuring. What's important here is the acknowledgement that clathrates have biological effects, and this strongly supports a theory for the action of homeopathic remedies.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/201006 ... vodka.aspx
Certainly I wish to be corrected on this if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, Joe Rozencwajg proposes something similar. The question I have with this is, would it require a chain reaction, "crystallizing" the organism's water . . and if so, how would it nucleate? What would it nucleate around? What would act as the guest? Alcohol effects, unlike homeopathic, are dtermined by volume. THe more you drink, the more bioloigcal effects you feel; noit so with homeopathic remedies.
To the best of my understanding, (i.e. Schaefer) the clathrate model for "homeopathics," i.e. supramolecular structuring, is analogous . . I can't refer to any study that shows clathrates are present in homeopathic remedies, in the way that methane clathrates are found, for example, on the ocean floor . . the same that caused the BP oil disaster by clogging up the pipe. I think the reason clathrates are not more noted in homeopathic remedies is because the difficulty in identifying the phenomenon in its nano forms once pure pneumatic nucleation begins once the dilution goes over the Avogadro limit . . and also because, possibly, once the host is structured, then nucleation is not necessary to carry the information, except for the "skin effect" of tension around cavitation, which increases conductivity, hence potency.
We know that the remedy, although administered remotely from the afflicted site, must be distributed globally . . and then acts locally. To further explain, a remedy can be administered through the nose's olfactory senses and have an immediate curative effect on an afflicted organ.
So how do we explain that?
Perhaps the take away is that Joe is right, if clathrate formation (or something analogous to clathrates) is what he's proposing. He hasn't been forthcoming about it in lieu of book sales, so I don't know. The organism may have a global, a para-neural electrical system that operates through its fluids via hydrogen bond structuring. As soon as the signal hits the afflicted site, the bodies fluids naturally opsonically nucleate around or tag the antigen.
The reason I'm cautious about using clathrates as the sole explanation for homeopathy is that they focus on the character of the guest initially, but after the guest solute has been discarded by dilution, it requires that there be distinctions in the host that control the action of the remedy, meaning that the entire host has been restructured with cavitation.
John

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EXTRAORDINARY MEDICINE

John Benneth, Homeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com

SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

Love people, expect them to love you back.

[Irene de Villiers]

This is the part he understands that a lot of folks are still not getting - that the clathrates are formed FIRST
...(in response to presence of a guest-shape molecule - OR - in response to presence of an already formed clathrate from such a guest)
- and that the guest compounds become inclusions SECOND - after the clathrate (or actually many many clathrates are) already formed. Only SOME clathrates get inclusions - the rest remain empty.
So - The clathrate is NOT formed around the guest. The guest is attracted into the already formed clathrate.
There are some clues:
The larger the guest, the more readily clathrates are formed at normal temperatures.
Pressure encourages their formation.
They DO form more easily in dilute solution (per research but I dunno why).
Possibly the shock-pressure of succussion does encourage clathrate formation.
However it seems to be true.

Something weird is going on with temperature - or rather it is not going on where it is expected to be occurring with clathrates. Per Russian research this year, there is an adiabatic component (transfer of energy without a temperature change) in repulsive clathrates (those that push each other away) and a corresponding negative thermal elasticity. These characteristics are being used for dissipation, accumulation, and transformation of large amount of energy in small volumes of working chambers.

It then gets involved with phonons (like oscillations or waves- or "collective excitation in a periodic elastic arrangement").....

But this is for me only a clue of where to look next - no conclusion or direct homeopathy connection comes to mind presently.
It says there is more to learn, but the adiabatic issue is an odd one and relates to independence from temperature for larger clathrates at some less frigid levels:-)

Can't be long before we get ALL the details:-)
............Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[John R. Benneth]

Irene . .
There's something you're not making clear here . . or I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying. Are you saying that the clathrate host cage forms first, before it engulfs the guest solute?
John
In a message dated 9/26/2013 6:44:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, furryboots@icehouse.net writes:
EXTRAORDINARY MEDICINE

John Benneth, Homeopath
PG Hom - London (Hons.)
http://johnbenneth.com

SKYPE: John Benneth (Portland, Oregon)
503- 819 - 7777 (USA)

Love people, expect them to love you back.

[Irene de Villiers]

Yes.
Before the guest item is attracted into it (ini some cases - some clathrates stay empty) yes.
Irene
REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."