Appetite suppressants?

[Tanya Marquette]

Irene
If you stop eating 4 hours before bedtime and sleep 8 hours, that is a daily
12 hours of ‘fasting.’ I know of no one that supports going to sleep on a full
stomach
From: Irene de Villiers
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 11:20 AM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Appetite suppressants?
It is not "resting" form lack of nutrients then. There's no comparison.
Sleep is essential to lowering the cortisol built up during the day, and for healing in general, which hapens twice as fast during sleep - unless tyhe nutrients to work with, have been deprived, as in fasting!

Nobody is questioning the value of sleep, meditaton etc - just the value of failing to provdie the nutrients used during these times.
Promoted by many does not equal beneficial. It is especially NOT beneficial to go without nutrients more than 8 hrs in many situations.
We call is breaking the fast that occurs during sleep of 8 hrs of so.
The liver is designed to kick in and convert muscle to glucose if you fail to eat for longer than 8 hrs. The body does NOT benefit by protein breakdown.

The fast during sleep is not what was meant in this discussion by "fasting" - and I am sure you know that!

I see nothing in these excuses to suggest any benefit from fasting as we are discussing it.
If one generally eats poison, I suppose there would be benefit to stopping eaating that. But I am assuming a person who cares at all about their health, is not eating poison or will stop doing so rather than fasting and depleting ALL nutrients.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

Are you seriously suggesting that this is what was meant by "going on a fast" at the start of the discussion?

As it happens, the best diabetes physicians - the ones who know how dabetes works - advocate never spacing meals by more than 8 hrs iin adults, and there is a difference between going to bed after eating some small amount and goiing to bed "with a full stomach".

It feels you are arguing for the sake of it?
This was about going on a fast, not how long to not eat overnight.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Tanya Marquette]

Irene,

There are all kinds of fasting protocols and I think you are confusing the
issue. Not eating for 12 hours daily is kind of fasting.

Your position seems to be that all kinds of fasting are harmful. My point
is that you cannot make such blanket statements.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. It does not seem to be a
fruitful discussion as this point.

t

[Roger B]

I find myself having greater and greater difficulty disagreeing with Irene. Her last advice to me was spectacular, and I intend to re-read her letter several times regarding magnesium, water, and B-vitamins several times.

I agree with her on this fasting matter also. I did a "fast" for 30 days. I drank mostly home juiced veggie juice, one cup of homemade kefir, and supplements, including fish oil. I had no trouble doing 30 days. I just couldn't wrap my mind around the idea of not eating any protein. I lost weight like crazy and felt just fine.

But, surprise, surprise, I gained all of the weight back. Wow, that was such a surprise!!!!

Roger
________________________________

To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
From: furryboots@icehouse.net
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 08:20:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Appetite suppressants?
It is not "resting" form lack of nutrients then. There's no comparison.
Sleep is essential to lowering the cortisol built up during the day, and for healing in general, which hapens twice as fast during sleep - unless tyhe nutrients to work with, have been deprived, as in fasting!

Nobody is questioning the value of sleep, meditaton etc - just the value of failing to provdie the nutrients used during these times.
Promoted by many does not equal beneficial. It is especially NOT beneficial to go without nutrients more than 8 hrs in many situations.
We call is breaking the fast that occurs during sleep of 8 hrs of so.
The liver is designed to kick in and convert muscle to glucose if you fail to eat for longer than 8 hrs. The body does NOT benefit by protein breakdown.

The fast during sleep is not what was meant in this discussion by "fasting" - and I am sure you know that!

I see nothing in these excuses to suggest any benefit from fasting as we are discussing it.
If one generally eats poison, I suppose there would be benefit to stopping eaating that. But I am assuming a person who cares at all about their health, is not eating poison or will stop doing so rather than fasting and depleting ALL nutrients.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[healthinfo6]

The liver is designed to kick in and convert muscle to glucose if you fail to eat for longer than 8 hrs. The body does NOT benefit by protein breakdown.

The muscle catabolism is avoided on the Atkins, ketogenic diet where the liver uses fat instead of glucose once the glycogen stores are depleted.
Additionally, ketosis is one step from totally fasting as you lose your appetite and eventually eat much less the longer you stay on it, and derive many health benefits from that as you can eat much less calories to maintain.
Ketone bodies can also bring you to a higher spiritual, meditative level if you are so disposed.
What About The Anti Catabolic Effects Of The Ketogenic Diet?
Every reduced calorie diet is Catabolic, meaning that they can cause you to lose muscle. It's a fact! This is largely due to the fact that on a reduced calorie diet many of the anabolic hormones in the body are significantly reduced. Added to that most dieters do copious amounts of aerobic exercise when dieting which is a very good way to catabolize muscle. So the main thing we can try to do is lose the least amount of muscle possible when dieting, or even possibly rebuild lost tissue, which is where the carb-up comes in. But that will not be discussed in this chapter.
Other than hormonal reasons the main reason why catabolism occurs is because protein will be broken down, or catabolized, to make glucose. This is because the brain uses a boat load of glycogen, upwards of 25% of the body's glucose. Now when carbohydrates are restricted, the body will still need glucose for the brain, so it is forced to breakdown protein mostly from your own muscle tissue.
Now, ketosis is different because when in the state of ketosis the brain will prefer ketones over glucose. For the dieter this is very good because the body will not have to break down protein for energy. In turn the body will be forced to use its fat reserves, a.k.a. your love handles, for its energy. This is why ketosis is such a good method of dieting.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
Susan (40 year Atkins follower)

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Didn't Dr Atkin die an over weight man? 200 lb and 6ft tall!
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of healthyinfo6@aol.com
Sent: 11 November 2013 16:05
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Appetite suppressants?
The muscle catabolism is avoided on the Atkins, ketogenic diet where the liver uses fat instead of glucose once the glycogen stores are depleted.
Additionally, ketosis is one step from totally fasting as you lose your appetite and eventually eat much less the longer you stay on it, and derive many health benefits from that as you can eat much less calories to maintain.
Ketone bodies can also bring you to a higher spiritual, meditative level if you are so disposed.
What About The Anti Catabolic Effects Of The Ketogenic Diet?

Every reduced calorie diet is Catabolic, meaning that they can cause you to lose muscle. It's a fact! This is largely due to the fact that on a reduced calorie diet many of the anabolic hormones in the body are significantly reduced. Added to that most dieters do copious amounts of aerobic exercise when dieting which is a very good way to catabolize muscle. So the main thing we can try to do is lose the least amount of muscle possible when dieting, or even possibly rebuild lost tissue, which is where the carb-up comes in. But that will not be discussed in this chapter.
Other than hormonal reasons the main reason why catabolism occurs is because protein will be broken down, or catabolized, to make glucose. This is because the brain uses a boat load of glycogen, upwards of 25% of the body's glucose. Now when carbohydrates are restricted, the body will still need glucose for the brain, so it is forced to breakdown protein mostly from your own muscle tissue.

Now, ketosis is different because when in the state of ketosis the brain will prefer ketones over glucose. For the dieter this is very good because the body will not have to break down protein for energy. In turn the body will be forced to use its fat reserves, a.k.a. your love handles, for its energy. This is why ketosis is such a good method of dieting.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
Susan (40 year Atkins follower)

[healthinfo6]

He slipped on ice and hit his head on concrete sidewalk which began his quick demise.
Seems he had a cardiac issue related to a virus
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -died.html
Wasn't it rumored Hahnemann was going insane from decades of exposure to homeopathic remedies?
Susan

[Soroush Ebrahimi]

Dear Susan

I do not know why you have resorted to rumours!

I gave you a fact that Dr Atkin was 200 lb and 6 ft when he died - that makes him overweight by most standards.

So did he practise his own diet?

If yes, why was he over weight?

If No, then why not?

Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of healthyinfo6@aol.com
Sent: 11 November 2013 16:48
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Appetite suppressants?
He slipped on ice and hit his head on concrete sidewalk which began his quick demise.
Seems he had a cardiac issue related to a virus
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -died.html
Wasn't it rumored Hahnemann was going insane from decades of exposure to homeopathic remedies?
Susan

[Irene de Villiers]

Sorry no it is not avoided on Atkins (nor on any other diet). It is a meetabolic fact issue, not a diet issue.
This is normal body function as a result of NO food, specifically no protein, for 8 hrs (including no Atkins diet food) and no diet can change that.
If one eats only carbs, the effect is worse than with fat or protein eating and the liver will catabolize sooner than after 8 hrs.
IN fact fat is not going to help much, it lasts a little longer for energy - but not for protein - than carbs, as fat has a higher energy contant than carbohydrates.
BUT _ Only protein can supply the components of amino acids found ONLY in proteins, there are none in fats and carbs - and which the body MUST have after 8 hrs of fasting - hence muscle breakdown to provide it, f it is not eaten. Eating fat is no help in providing it, and eating protein does not last longer than a MAX OF 8 HRS.
You actually have to eat a huge amount of protein at once to have it last a full 8 hrs. Better is to eat it regularly during the day plus some extra near bedtime.

The result of not doing so is weight loss of MUSCLE - which is either uswed up after conversiion to glucose or turned into fat (at the rate of 1 pound of muscle makes 5 pounds of fat by the way) - and a raised blood glucose also results, as muscle is changed to glucose in the liver at that point, to fuel the metabolism - in other words the protein from eating it or from muscle breakdown, is the building blocks carried in the bloodstream "truck", which is fuelled by glucose, also from muscle breakdown if necessary due to an 8 hr or longer fast - to take it wherever it is needed and use it there.
Ketosis is not akin to fasting. It is the RESULT of fasting.
The body can use ketones for fuel, and if they are there (as they are after fasting) then they will be used first.
it is an adaptation for survival despite fasting. Again it will not conserve the valuable body muscle that you need.
It is true that it suppresses appetite. I consider that aprach to e a very unhealty way to try to control weight, but it does help with glucose control.
Depends whether you are looking for glucose control along with ill health in other areas, or wheteher you are actually wanting to builod up your total health. The latter needsd a bit of discipline instead of ketone inappetance.
It will reward you by conserving muscle - which burns calories many times faster than other flabby tissues - and which is healthier. The conversion of five pounds fat versus 1 pound of muslce is one that works both ways. Build a pound of muscle and you lose 5 pounds of fat.
Lose a pound of muslce and you gain five pounds of fat.

Trying to have it both ways is the atkins approach. It has a high protein diet (for muscle) intake, but it does not use fasting - the two should not be combined. The idea is to eat protein on Atkins often enouh to maintain necessary blood glucose without getting a high blood glucose. In this, blood glucose is releated to carb intake. Low carb, low blood glucose - UNLESS you fast. Then blood glucose can skyrocket.
No. The reason you need/eat less calories on Atkins is that protein sustains MOST (not all) people for many more hours than carbs, and becasue a NORMAL blood glucose does not trigger craving for carbs as a high blood glucose does. (Some type A blood group folks can sustain for longish periods on plant food; their metabolism works differently - though they also need protein.)
I'm not going there except to say:
Ketones may you feel ill. If that makes you spiritual, that's your choice.
Reduced calorie diets are only used by ignorant people.
Diets are about healthiness not weight or calories.
A healthy person has a lot of muscle and weighs significantly more than an unhealty person of exactly the same measurements.
No sensible person eats or "diets" in a way to destroy muscle (catabolic).

The smart way to eat, is to provide nutrients in the quantity needed.
It's a simple rule, and it will ensure increased muscle and decreased fat automatically (through increased metabolic activity of muscle) without ketosis or other detrimental approaches, such as are found on various websites on the internet, flogging ketogenic stuff.

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

[Irene de Villiers]

He was 200 lb when admitted to hospital in 2003, age 72, after the fall in which he slipped and hit his head, and which put him in a coma for a week before he died at 258 pounds (edema added in hospital).

He had previosuly (Apr 2002) admitted to being in recovery from a heart attack, and although the family refused to allow an autopsy, the medical examiners report got out in Feb 2004 and let slip that "Atkins had suffered a heart attack, congestive heart failure and hypertention before his death".

Not the most glowing report of health.

Contrast with another famous diet person: Dr Nicholas Perricone.
He advocates a diet of very high antioxidants, with a proper selection of good protein, good fat, and good fruit and vegetable sources, with a view to healiing the body starting on the inside. (This interestingly, is from a man who is a dermatologist - he talks mainly about the INSIDE) .
He was born 1948, and at 65 looks the picture of health, judge for yourself, two pics here:
http://melanienotkin.com/2010/10/29/cel ... ver-young/
http://www.thebetterhealthstore.com/perricone.html

Namaste,
Irene

REPLY TO: only
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."