potentizing supplements

[Ellen Madono]

Hi,

Does anyone have experience with potentizing mineral supplements? I am trying some mineral supplements that are from my point of view pretty expensive. They include trace minerals. I am thinking of potentizing them to see if I can decrease the amount necessary to produce an effect. It seems like the same idea as tissue remedies except I am potentizing the whole mixture of minerals.

They are already in a liquid form so I just use Eiziaga's coke bottle method of potentizing tobacco spit. I think it is the Korsakoff method. For 6c put 1:99 parts minerals and water half filling the bottle. Succuss (not sure how to spell this) 40 times or so. Pour out the liquid and add the same amount of water without washing the bottle. Succussion. Repeat 4 more times for 6c. The final time I would do it with high proof alcohol and put it on blank sugar pellets.

By trial and error I would try to find out how much of the mineral makes a noticible difference.

I know this is not homeopathy, but if it worked, it could support a homeopathic treatment. I try to avoid high long term espenses and try not to pull clients into expensive supplements. There are other types of supplements that I would like to try, but the expense keeps me from trying.

Does anyone have experience?

Blessings,
Ellen Madono

[d_rona2000]

Why? Cells require certain molecules to function. Nutrients must be
provided to the cells - you can't 'fool' them to function on a
potentized mineral remedy - at least not for long. You can't run a
car on potentized gasoline - the chemical constituents (actual
molecules) of the fuel are necessary. Our foods are providing less
and less of the essential nutrition (including minerals and trace
minerals). I see more and more people eating wonderful foods that
still need supplements. I just finished writing a set of courses on
soils - it is amazing what has happened to the world's soils and
therefore food supply.

Supplements are relatively expensive and will likely become more
expensive. The process of securing quality basic materials,
preparing, distributing, etc. under any ethical quality control is
expensive. You can get cheap stuff - but you can also try to eat
nails for iron - it simply is not bio-available, and can do harm.

In my opinion - this is one place NOT to cut corners or look for
cheap alternatives. If a potentized material produces particular
symptoms in a proving - then by all means - they provide a tool in
our homeopathic kit. But I don't think potentizing substances
because they are expensive is part of the logic of homeopathy, or
satisfies the body's physical need for nutrients (even
micronutrients).

Donna

D C Rona, PhD, ND, DHM
Stress Repertory: Signs and Symptoms of Stress Induced Nutrient
Depletion
http://stores.lulu.com/drrona
also available at bookstores and online booksellers
New series - Health and Healing Journals - just released!
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Ellen Madono"
wrote:
I am
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bottle method
For 6c
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[Ellen Madono]

Dear Donna,

My thought was that the body sometimes is not accepting nutrients that are there. Potentizing will help to increase reception. I realize that the physical nutrients will still be needed. I am asking because this is a subject about which I know little and have little experience. The cell salt idea never made much sense to me because they tell you to take a certain physical number of pills when it looks like the cell salts are simply potentized remedies and therefore I would think you would take them just as you take remedies keeping in mind that they are nutrient minerals. I was assuming that they would improve reception of the minerals (coming from foods etc), not that the physical remedy is so significant. In the case of these mineral (some of them), the physical minerals are truely lacking in our diet due to industrial farming.

By the way, I about to buy your nutruient repertory. I think that is what it is. Please correct me if I am wrong. What and excellent idea. I hope the content is as good as the idea. I wish Bach Flower remedies were also organized in reps.

Best,
Ellen

[d_rona2000]

Ellen,

I am curious on what basis you think potentizing will help increase
reception? I have never seen any work in that direction. Can you
please point me in the direction of articles/books on this use? If
this were true, we could 'boost' everyone's ability to absorb
vitamins and minerals by making them into remedies.

I have certainly heard people refer to taking cell salts for
their 'nutrition' - but we all know the process of taking a substance
to 6x removes all but the very rare molecule - so I never took that
concept seriously.

My understanding of cell salts is that they were discovered as
a 'group' to be part of the human body and that they were potentized
and utilized (with proper provings) in a standard homeopathic form
with provings providing repertory and clinical experience being
added. They are remarkably effective and gentle and I use them often
in my practice - but never as a 'nutritional supplement'.

I go back to my original response to your post, the actual physical
minerals are necessary in specific amounts to fulfill the biochemical
needs of the body. Quality supplements are expensive, but you need
less of them since they are bioavailable.

I am happy you are interested in my book Stress Repertory: Signs and
Symptoms of Stress Induced Nutrient Depletion - however it is not a
nutrient repertory as such - rather it is specific to the nutrient
depletions caused by stress. It is a first attempt to place in
repertory format the symptoms produced by those specific nutrient
depletions (as we currently understand them).

There are quite a few books that relate the Bach Flower Remedies in
repertory format. I was just at a local used book store and saw 5 or
6.

Donna

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Ellen Madono"
wrote:
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[Ellen Madono]

Hi Donna,

I agree with you nutrients are needed in physical form. Due to soil the depletion we are lacking those minerals. Is this not particularly true of trace minerals? I am not talking about substituting mineral supplements with potentized remedies. I am talking about improving assimilation of supplements. They are physically necessary, I agree.

Some minerals we do have a plentiful supply. For example, my constipation when I travel is completely solved by taking extra magnesium. I am a Lacto, egg eating, fish eating vegetarian (ie, don't eat meat) so I doubt that I am lacking in the amount of magnesium that I take from organic brown rice, and lots of fresh veggies. I do not lead a very stressful life, but who knows stress to one person is a lark to another.
Many of the tissue salts are minerals that we do have a plentiful supply (calcium, silica,...)

PAGE 12 KANSAL K., The Biochemics
A mineral-rich diet is no insurance against diseases resulting from mineral deficiency. Even with a well-balanced diet, rich in minerals, vitamins and trace elements, the body sometimes fails to assimilate these substances. In such circumstance the tissue salts in their potentised form are able to bridge the gap and restore the molecular imbalance that may be impeding the nutritional process. Assimilation can then proceed in a normal manner, and the body should be able to obtain all the nutrients it needs from the foods eaten. The minerals present in the food are mostly compounds and the digestive process renders these into assimilable factors. The tissue salts, however, require no breaking down and are immediately assimilated. This is a great advantage, particularly when the digestion is weak. Assimilation is the key to nutritional biochemistry.

How do we know why there is a difference between one person and another in their need for supplements? Couldn't part of it be related to differences in assimilation?
Sensitivity or assimilation is some kind of adoption response. I was reading about goiters and iodine deficiency. In areas of the world where iodine deficiency is endemic, goiters are normal among adults. They do not develop the mental and nervous symptoms of hyperthyroidism that occur in areas where iodine is part of the diet. Also when they are given injections of iodine, immediate hypothyroid reactions are common. The point is tissues become sensitive to nutrients when they are lacking.

I also get the impression that this assimilation is a significant issue when I read the rubrics of nutrient remedies. Many are symptoms of either deficiency or excess (poisoning). Listening to the lecture is by Vermeulen "Interviewing a Substance" I got the strong impression that he believes assimilation is a significant aspect of any nutrient remedy. He pointedly goes over the symptoms of deficiency. Also in his book, Prisma, for nutrients he always covers the symptoms of deficiency and as well as toxicity. Deficiency is an assimilation issue and toxicity is a sensitivity issue. They are two ends of a spectrum. There is plenty happening at the cell wall and also with enzymes inside the cell that could account for these differences. Too bad I do not know the details.

I do not have a good education in physiology, so I would love to have you straighten me out.

Best,
Ellen Madono

[d_rona2000]

As an ND the topic of assimilation is always high on my priority list
for an individual, and is an important topic of ongoing study for me -
both in terms of psyiology and biochemistry of the individual and in
terms of foodstuffs and supplements on the market. However to heal
the bodies capacity to assimilate, it seems most effective to work on
the bigger picture of health (many people refer to it as the
constitutional remedy) in most cases (this does not always work for
cases of poisonings or surgical removal of organs). The concept of
potentizing various minerals to avoid expensive supplements was the
original topic of this thread. As the thread moves
to 'assimilation', then it seems appropriate to go back to the basics
of 'classical' homeopathy and work with totality - not look for a
remedy (or a way to come up with a new remedy) for someones poor
assimilation of one element and nothing else.

The overall topic of when, what, how much, and in what combinations
various vitamins and minerals are best absorbed and fully utilized is
a complex issue, and requires the same individualization as choosing
a good homeopathic remedy. Potentizing specific ingredients in an
attempt to reduce the cost of supplements is outside the realm of
what I currently understand to be 'classical homeopathy'. If any
substance is potentized, properly 'proven', incorporated into our
literature and repertories, etc. then we can consider using it for
healing - knowing its full range of symptoms - working to match it to
the totality of the person in front of us. Anything short of that
just seems to be more in the allopathic direction.

I will be anxious to hear the thoughts and experiences of others on
this topic.

Donna
In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Ellen Madono" wrote:
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[Ellen Madono]

Is giving supplements classical homeopathy? If no one replies, it is because no one wants to get into a messy argument about classical homeopathy. My original question was does anyone have experience with this? Not what is politically correct for this discussion group. I am happy to drop the subject.
Best,
Ellen Madono

[d_rona2000]

Considering the use of supplements is certainly within the relm of
removing 'maintaing cause', a fundamental concept in homeopathic
practice. Potentizing supplements is a different subject and perhaps
no one has experience with this topic, or perhaps it is the holiday
season and people are not available to participate on this
discussion. Looking at the other threads current at this moment - I
think it is amazing and inspiring how many people on this list have
been available to help those having emergencies during the holidays.

Donna

--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Ellen Madono"
wrote:
is
with
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[Luise Kunkle]

Hi Ellen,
No, no. I, e. g., fully agree with you but ....
My original question was does anyone have experience with

do not have any experience.

There can be little doubt that the Schuessler remedies work this way
as far as the salts go - and when those are used in the framework of
"Classical" homeopathy they may, at least in some cases, also work
that way. Making a combo of e.g. the salts and potentizing them
together might be a darn good idea - the same goes for trace minerals
and other nutrients. Or perhaps it may be better to potentize them
seperately and then make a combo from them.

The reason why (or one of them): Those substances often and probably
always work in synergy or polarity: e.g. someone absorbing a lot of
calcium needs more magnesium, since there has to be a balance in the
ratio. The same goes for sodium and potassium. This much has been
known - I read it first decades ago in Adelle Davis's books. This may
be so for many more or all nutrients.

Stimulating absorbance of just one may be contra-indicated when
thinking around these lines. The reason that the Schuessler salts
still work may be because the do not *stimulate* absorabne but
*regulate* it.

Thinking further along these lines it may be true that a combination
may work to regulate all of the absorbance mechanisms - where needed.
It would be a general balancing effect.

Whether this line of reasoning is correct could only be determined
after tring it out on a large scale - which should not be difficult to
achieve.
Ah, come on. This group has become remarkably tolerant after those
purists who saw it as their mission to keep the list tethered to their
dogma have left or reduced their input.

After all - Ardavan's own work is not within their lines.

And after reading about the success of nosodes in Cuba and in
prophylaxis to top it off, even the purists may have to do a lot of
re-thinking in order to remain even in the least true to Hahnemann,
who kept experimenting and kept adjusting his teaching to the results
of those experiments!
Regards

Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========

[d_rona2000]

Hello Luise,

Your comment about the cell salts is the way I have found them to
work - rather than being specific nutrients or stimulating absorption
of a single specific nutrient - they act as regulators. It is
amazing to see just how quickly and effectively they work. I think
they are so effective because they are based on the inorganic
constituents of our cells. I have an old quotation that I believe is
from Chapman:

". . . the fact being that these "cell salts," as they are commonly
called, are the vital portions of the body, the workers, the
builders; that the water and organic substances forming the remainder
of the organism are simply inert matter used by these salts in
building the cells of the body."

Donna
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Luise Kunkle wrote:
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