online case LA/Feb.02

[Joy Lucas]

Dear Lisa, here are some points and observations about your case.

1) It is very long. You are obviously very close to this case - it would be
more efficient if you could try to be more objective and 'home in' on the
essentials of the case but at the same time don't exclude important
information.

2) There appears to be quite a high toxicity level with the bath and flea
ingredients - not sure what part they are playing, best to avoid them if you
can.

3) I think that some of the dog's behaviour could be modified (for want of a
better word) by giving him long walks. By behaviour I am referring to his
destructive tendencies. I have a collie and I know how energetic they are.
She had to have 2 extremely long walks everyday until she got too old for
it. He might just be bored when left on his own.

4) That aside - I know you wrote that he is just being affectionate and that
you do not think he is jealous etc. I have to say that it reads as though he
is extremely JEALOUS. Other prominent aspects of the case are MANIA for
licking and tearing clothes; AMATIVE nature; wants to ESCAPE??? (this
appears to part of his sexual appetite and is probably normal in a dog that
hasn't been neutered; wants COMPANY; AFFECTIONATE; SYMPATHETIC; and that
uncanny way he has of 'KNOWING' what is going on - could you use clairvoyent
here?; diminished APPETITE; deranged stomach, can't eat chicken turkey;
ENERGY IS DIFFUSED - he is everywhere; progressive muscular weakness.

Anyway what starts to emerge is a HYOS/PHOS line of remedies.

But I will leave you to do some extra work on this.

Best wishes, Joy Lucas

[Sheila Parks]

dear lisa and all, i have been reading over the past few months some
wonderful books about dogs and other animals: elizabeth marshall thomas,
"the hidden life of dogs"; jeffrey moussaieff masson, "dogs never lie about
who they love"; and am now reading masson's "when elephants weep". also have
out from the library by the monks of new skete, "how to be your dog's best
friend: a training manual for dog owners" - this last said to be the best
book for training and learning about dogs, somewhere i read that these monks
have something to do with saint francis (of course) but i cannot find the
exact reference now. reading these books feels like a divine appointment.
i highly recommend them for anyone who treats or interacts with animals in
any way. jill, have you read any of them? they are profound for what they
say about dogs, other animals, and the human animal. sheila
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[The Annan's]

Dear Joy,
Thanks for your replies. Some some responses below your comments;).....

[The Annan's]

Dear Sheila;). The last book you mentioned sounds very interesting.

I do want everyone (who is interested in this case) to know that we aren't
inexperienced with dogs (i.e. having Ben as part of our family isn't a first
for us) - and certainly not inexperienced with Border Collies (my husband
has owned several throughout his life...they are a lovely breed which we
happen to adore)....

I certainly appreciate the recommendations below, though;).

Best wishes,
Lisa (Annan)

[Sheila Parks]

dear lisa, i have not read the monks of new skete book yet, but after your
email,just looked up licking and jealousy. nothing, but there was something
about loneliness, which might be right on target, seeing that you all spend
less time with the dog now, as i understand it, even though you do include
him as part of your family whereever you go:this is actually a quote from
Dr. Benjamin Hart, prof of veterinary medicine at the univ of ca at davis,
quoted in the book :If your dog is tearing up the place,he could be lonely
or needing more exercise." The monks add:" Can dogs experience lonliness?
Quite easily, suggests dr. michael fox, whose researh indicates that the
'emotional center' of the dog's brain are similar to human emotional
centers.'" further on they quote someone saying that 'petting could
produce profound effects on the cardiovascular system of dogs.'" the book
is published by little brown and company, boston-toronto, 1978. by the monks
of the brotherhood of saint francis (ah, there is the reference), inc., new
skete monastery, cambridge, ny 12816. i don't know if the book is in book
stores or pet stores, i would imagine so. i just read where you live in
another post, foget where, but remember it is far away. i could try to buy
you the book and send it to you, of course you could write to the monks.
let me know. also, rupert sheldrake in britain has written about how dogs
know when you are coming home at the time when you start leaving where you
are. i cannot remember the exact write up he has done, but it is superb. do
others have it and could you write about it, please? otherwise, i will try
to find it. good luck, lisa - sheila
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[The Annan's]

Ah - thanks so much Sheila. I'll be in UK in March - so could try to get the
book while there;). If I have no joy - then I'll maybe ask you later if the
offer still stands, okay;).

Ben isn't 'tearing up the place'. He has never done that really. (Once while
a pup...he chewed the leg of a desk ---*ONCE only* and when we made him
understand that wasn't desirable, he never did it again...it was when he was
teething, btw and we got him some chewy toys which he liked as a
replacement).

He has only chewed a few clothes items - during one period (last Nov) when
the feral bitches were in heat.
I've been thinking about this too:
I think this happened because my husband was out reinforcing the fence
everyday (making it more and more difficult for Ben to get out).

So, I just hafta stress - that he only tore clothes during last November - a
few episodes. In fact, the FIRST time he chewed some clothes was one night
when we went out AND the fence had been reinforced that day...(i.e. he
couldn't escape to rendevous with his bitch!!). So, I think he must've been
incredibly frustrated at being left behind PLUS not being able to satisfy
his urges. (BTW: he has one bitch in particular that seems to arouse his
interests more than the others - although we think he 'goes' with all of
them at various times).

I actually suggested to John that the next time the feral bitches are in
heat - that we let the bitch in the garden for a spell during each evening
that she comes round - so they can have their affair - and then let her out
again each night - to avoid all this madness. What do you think? I wonder
if this would calm everyone's nerves a bit....as our main concern (as I said
before) is him getting out and being caught up in a shooting campaign which
we are never forewarned about.

I don't think he is lonely - he is always with us - interacting with us. I'm
sure he has moments of lonliness ---when he wants to play and we don't or
can't...but overall I wouldn't say he is a lonely dog.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and input. And I really am going to try
and get this book! It sounds fantastic.
Do those monks have a website by any chance? Or would you know of any other
way to contact them??

Much appreciate everything, Sheila;),
Lisa

[The Annan's]

I feel so silly...sorry..but hafta post this in case anyone else is
interested. I asked before if you knew of any links to the monks...i found
two..
here they are:
http://www.nettinker.com/monasteries/newskete.htm
and

http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/monastery/sk.html
Thanks for putting me onto them Sheila!!
All the best,
Lisa

[Sheila Parks]

hi again dear lisa, the offer for the book stands for as long as you need it
to. someone wrote in one of the books i have just read, i think it was
elizabeth maarshall thomas, that dogs indeed have dogs - and humans- that
they like better than others, and that they have lovers, etc. so i think it
is a great idea to put your dog outside in the yard with his lover, the
feral bitch he likes the most, wants to be with. i know you will let us
know what happens. sheila
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[The Annan's]

Hi Sheila,
I'm able to order the book online....so I'm sure I can get it while in UK
(I'll order while I'm there cutting down on postage).

Thanks for your comments on Ben...
I feel quite excited in a way - about the next round of heat - because I
want to see if there will be any changes once we make it easier for him to
have his lover in for a visit each night;). I'm sure he'll be much more
settled once we make this move.

Don't know why it hadn't occurred to me before! Makes sense doesn't it!
And, yes, I'll keep you posted on how it works out;).

All the best,
Lisa

[Rosemary Hyde]

Hi, Lisa.

Your situation sounds as if it is difficult -- having an unneutered dog
surrounded by feral bitches coming into heat on a regular basis. I suspect
your "true love" scenario may be a bit anthropomorphic, since a male dog
will desperately try to mate with any and all bitches in heat that it
perceives. It's the way dogs very naturally preserve their genetic code.
Some species tend to be monogamous, but not dogs. So in a way, your camp
environment creates a perennially uncomfortable, difficult situation for a
confined unneutered male dog. In any case, his behaviors when confronted
with bitches in heat are totally normal, healthy, and natural -- not disease
symptoms. I loved your description of his herding games. Border collies
are wonderful dogs, and the herding instinct certainly is very, very strong
in them. I think you've developed a living situation that is very good for
Ben in many ways.

Rosemary C. Hyde