Hi, Irene.
Very interesting question, this.
I'd be curious about more detailed analysis of modalities and concomitants.
With Lachesis, I would expect you would see dark, black blood and purplish
coloration, both in the bullae on the skin, and in the hemorrhages. What
color was the bleeding? I might also expect to see a strong sensitivity to
to and avoidance of being touched. The pathology would be more around the
throat than in the mouth, I would also expect. Plus, Lachesis is not
necessarily a first-line remedy one would think of for kidney
failure. --although it's certainly a possibility. I was just curious about
some of the other possibilities, in the interests of having a thorough
differential diagnosis. I'm not contradicting your thoughts about Lach.
In fact, most of the more commonly indicated remedies for kidney failure
don't fit the whole picture, other than, potentially, Ars, Phos, Ser-ang,
Vip, and Kali-chlor.
Two strongly indicated remedies in kidney failure would be Apis or Apocynum,
both of which would have a lot of swelling. Apis, of course, would be worse
heat. Apoc would be thirsty with vomiting, vomiting blood, etc... but no
indication for the blood blisters or mouth ulcers. Strophanthus is another
possible consideration -- it would have twitchings, but it's not so
ulcerative or hemorrhagic.
With Ars, which is possible, there would be chilliness, thirst for small
sips.
Another possibility is Phos, of course, if the bleeding is bright red rather
than dark red. There are some interesting precedents for considering Phos,
in addition to the toxicity from poison with a hemorrhagic and digestive set
of symptoms. One case cited by T.F. Allen that was cured by Phos:
"Dassier, Journ. de Toul., 1851(S.J. , 74, 168), effects of a large amount
of rat poison, in a girl;"
Blackwood cites the symptoms of Phos after ingestion of toxic doses from rat
poison:
"This agent, found in rat-poison and in matches, is at times the cause of
death.
- The fatal dose is about one grain. The fatal period is from half an hour
to several days.
- Symptoms.-These are varied. The immediate symptoms are irritation of the
stomach, the vomiting of material that is luminous in the dark and may be
tinged with blood. The breath often has the odor of garlic. There is
prostration with diarrhoea, the stool often containing blood. After a few
days there appears a second group of symptoms, which resemble septicaemia.
The skin is yellow and dry. There are ecchymoses in various parts; the liver
is enlarged; the urine is suppressed and contains albumin; the blood is
disorganized, and there is fatty degeneration of various organs." Again I
would assume a primary differential with Lach might be the color of the
blood and the skin lesions.
Here's another Phos article, cited from Lancet, Jan 1910, of findings after
a person ingested a toxic amount of Phos from a rat poison: "PHOSPHORUS.
The Lancet, for January 15th, contained an account of a fatal case of
phosphorus poisoning in a woman, that is of interest. The poison was rat
poison containing 4 per cent. Phosphorus, and a drachm was taken, i.c. ,
nearly 21/2 grains of the poison. Abdominal pain was the first symptom,
followed by vomiting with great thirst. Then swelling of left foot appeared
due to subcutaneous haemorrhage. For an interval of two days the patient
seemed better; then the abdominal pain returned with profuse gastric and
uterine haemorrhage. At this stage she was removed to hospital, and it was
found that from the waist down wards there were a series of very large
subcutaneous haemorrhages. There was incontinence of urine and constipation.
She died shortly after admission, three and one-half days after taking the
poison. Post-mortem the great feature was the extent of the haemorrhage into
the mediastinum, retroperitoneal tissues, mesentry, etc. The fatty
degeneration of the liver characteristic of Phosphorus was most marked, but
though Phosphorus is well known at any rate to homoeopathists as a
haemorrhage drug, the extent of the bleeding here was very noteworthy and
unusual."-Homoeopathic World. "
The symptom picture from phosphorus intoxication is interestingly similar to
what you described, even though the substance involved in this recent
poisoning is not specifically Phosphorus.
In Radar 9, Synthesis, the rubric you cite, KIDNEY- Renal Failure brings up
some relatively little known remedies. But it's obviously an incomplete
rubric, since it doesn't include most of the above-cited remedies. Also you
imply that the rubric you found had more remedies??
KIDNEYS - RENAL FAILURE
am-be.mtf11 benz-ac.br1 berb.mtf11 cupr-ar.br1 fuma-ac.mtf11 germ-met.srj5
juni-c.br1 loxo-recl.bnm10 nat-ox-act.mtf11
KIDNEYS - RENAL FAILURE - acute
germ-met.srj5
The only one of the above remedies with the hemorrhagic element in the GI
tract is Loxo-recl.
I would also think seriously of Ser-ang, or possibly Vip in addition to Lach
and Phos -- and Ter!
This is Boericke's description of Ser-ang:
"SERUM ANGUILLAE (ser-ang.)
(Eel Serum)
"The serum of the eel has a toxic action on the blood, rapidly
destroying its globules. The presence of albumin and renal
elements in the urine, the haemoglobinuria, the prolonged anuria
(24 and 26 hours), together with the results of the autopsy,
plainly demonstrate its elective action on the kidneys. Secondarily,
the liver and the heart are affected, and the alterations
observed are those usually present in infectious diseases.
From all these facts it is easy to infer, a priori, the therapeutical
indications of the serum of the eel. Whenever the kidney
becomes acutely affected, either from cold or infection or intoxication,
and the attack is characterized by oliguria, anuria and
albuminuria, we will find the eel's serum eminently efficacious to
re-establish diuresis, and in rapidly arresting albuminuria.
When during the course of heart-disease, the kidney, previously
working well, should suddenly become affected and its function
inhibited; and when besides we observe cardiac irregularities
and a marked state of asystolia, we may yet expect good results
from this serum. But to determine here the choice of this
remedy is not an easy matter. While digitalis presents in its
indications, the well-known symptomatic trilogy : arterial hypertension
oliguria and oedema;
the serum of the eel seems better
adapted to cases of hypertension and oliguria, without oedema.
We should bear in mind that the elective action of the eel's
serum is on the kidney, and I believe we can well assert that if
digitalis is a cardiac, the eel's serum is a renal remedy. So far,
at least, the clinical observations published seem to confirm
this distinction. The serum of the eel has given very small results
in attacks of asystolia; but it has been very efficacious in
cardiac uremia. There, where digitalis is powerless, the serum of the eel
has put an end to the renal obstruction and produced
an abundant diuresis. But its really specific indication seems
to be for acute nephritis a frigori. (Jousset)
Subacute nephritis. Heart diseases, in cases of failure of
compensation and impending asytole. The experiments of
Dr.Jousset have amply demonstrated the rapid haematuria,
albuminuria and oliguria caused by it. In the presence of acute
nephritis with threatening uraemia we should always think of
this serum. Very efficacious in functional heart diseases.
Mitral insufficiency, asystolia with or without oedema,dyspnoea
and difficult urinary secretion.
Relationship.-Great analogy exists between eel serum and
the venom of the Vipera.
Compare also : Pelias; Lachesis.
Dose.-Attenuations are made with glycerine or distilled
water, the lower 1x to 3 in heart disease, the higher in sudden
renal attacks. "
Certainly Ter, as Joy said, has a picture very much like the major aspects
of this toxin -- kidney damage with GI hemorrhage, subcutaneous ecchymoses,
with ulcerations of the tongue. I'd definitely put this remedy into the
differential. Although it's a remedy for typhoid, I'm not sure that it is
fatal quickly enough to correspond to this whole picture.
As I said, this poisoning presents a very interesting case analysis
challenge. Thanks so much for bringing it up and sharing your observations
on the syndrome the toxin causes. The proof, of course, will be in what
helps affected animals.
Rosemary
Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
-
Rosemary C Hyde PhD
- Posts: 392
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
-
Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
Rosemary C Hyde PhD wrote:
The ear hematoma area fitted LAch this way and the kidney pain also
causes dislike of touchingm but the rest I can't verify at this point.
These animals are too sick too fast to know a lot about comcommitants
and I am attempting to help by email - so I went ahead with a suggestion
of Lach based on what I did know - time was of the essence.
I've learned NOT to look at things that way round. It's better to always
look for the case symptoms in the remedy - and NOT the remedy picture in
the case. What else the remedy covers, is not relevant to the case at
hand. In my view:
It's not a question of "How well does Lach fit the dog/cat?"
It's a case of "How well does the dog/cat fit into Lach?"
I'm not bothered therefore by any lack of a Lach key symptom - or even
all the key sx in the animal - as long as what the animal has, IS there
in LAch.
It would be extremely limiting of the power of our remedies to expect
keynote symptoms to always be there.
For example I handled a case of Boomslang bite (snake bite in which the
individual usually dies of internal bleeding in about 24 hrs) with LAch
- and there were no throat issues. It would have been a mistake to omit
LAch for want of throat issues. The symptom present did fit well into
LAch's rubric list.
Oh well oops for me then! That's what I get for responding first and
reading the next para second:-))
I'd like more info too but currently do not have it.
Not one of those is in *acute* kidney failure however.
Do you not see the type of kidney failure as relevant?
It's not really a regular kidney failure as in functional loss, so much
as physical grinding of kidney tissue, painfully, by the crystals that form.
Apis includes acute kidney failure but not the bleeding well.
Sorry I do not see that one at all here...
Again I am stuck on the acute issue of the crystal damage.
And I do not look for Ars symptoms in the individual - but illness
symptoms in the remedy.
After acute kidney failure the strongest symptoms is refusal to eat -
which is not typical at all in Phos and indeed not present. Nor is acute
kidney failure in Phos.
Interesting that a rat poison case was helped but I'm willing to bet it
was the kind of poison that causes internal bleeding - warfarin style
rather that the current exotic drug that makes crystals that fill the
kidney.
This is just as I'd expect with old style rat poison.
Acute kidney failure is thus not involved as it is in our situation.
I can not see any excuse to leave out the main issue of acute kidney
failure from the repping in the current situaiton!
again - no acute kidney failure:-)
We need to stick to the knitting - and the acute kidney failure IS the
"knitting" here.
There are lots of different rat poisons - and the current one is not
comparable; it works by an entirely different approach - and that DOES
matter.
No not at all.
Here we see as first sign - refusal to eat anything at all.
Next sign is acute kidney failure due to build up of crystals in the
kidneys, with associated severe pain.
ONE case only - took place over weeks. That one developed a tongue
ulcer, an ear hematoma and with cancer and diabetes in the background,
it finally developed the acute kidney failure with crystals etc. AFTER
that it developed bleeding at the terminal stage.
The bleeding was not part of the initial poisoning response as in
regular rat poisoning nor is it there in most cases which die at the
acute kidney failure stage from thye kidney damage from the drug
crystals - before ever getting to the bleeding at the end.
Old style rat poison works by causing internal bleeding - but that's
not the main problem here with this drug. that's why Phos suits the old
rat poison, not the new.
No the rubric is:
KIDNEY - Renal Failure, acute.
It may well be incomplete, but not by leaving out the ones you mentioned
which are polycrests like Phos - as they have been well used for long
enough to KNOW if acute kidney failure is handled well or not.
None of the cases you cited involves *acute* kidney failure - so I am
not seeing any argument in their favour in acute kidney failure when the
repertory does not have it either.
In Radar 9 there are 24 for acute kidney failure:
I do not know how to copy and paste from there to here (knew how in
Radar 7 but the same does not work here) but will type them out:
am-c, anthraci, Apis, bapt, canth, Carb-ac, Crot-h, cupr, Cupr-act,
cupr-ar, dig, germ-met, Hydr-ac, Hyos, Lach, lat-m, Laur, Morph, Op,
pic-ac, plb, sec, Stram.
Before I got more detail on cases I initially suggested Plb for one cat,
and it did keep a cat going, but I think the Lach will hopefully do it
better.
This has subrubrics of acute (as above 24 Rx) and chronic (45 rx).
For chronic kidney failure with dropsy yes - and for acute inflammation
of kidneys but I don;t see it for acute failure of kidneys.
Not what we see here - we see physical kidney damage.
not present
also not present
also not present.
Eel serum has lots of kidney uses but I don't see it in this case.
But thank you for the writeup details and discussion.
or aspects of this toxin
I do not see that either and wrote my analysis separately.
The GI hemorrage has been seen in one case only - and then only right
before death.
It's not the mode of action of the rat poison (as it would be in old
style rat poison)
We need to cater form what THIS drug is doing.
Ter is not for acute kidney failure. Nor does it cover refusal to eat,
mind- laziness, mouth bleeding, mouth ulcers, skin eruption blood
blisters or lab high creatinine. It has only 4 of the key 11 rubrics,
and lacks the most important.
Thank you for your input as well.
I think we have been led astray by the hemorrahage issue (a minor rare
one) over the acute kidney damage from crystals (a consistent killer and
main issue) and have not seen these in relevant perspective to the case.
Indeed.
But it never hurts to have logical discussion and thrash out the awkward
aspects and nitty gritty details.
We - or I anyway - learn things along the way that come in handy at
other times.
Thanks!
Have a great Sunday.
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
The ear hematoma area fitted LAch this way and the kidney pain also
causes dislike of touchingm but the rest I can't verify at this point.
These animals are too sick too fast to know a lot about comcommitants
and I am attempting to help by email - so I went ahead with a suggestion
of Lach based on what I did know - time was of the essence.
I've learned NOT to look at things that way round. It's better to always
look for the case symptoms in the remedy - and NOT the remedy picture in
the case. What else the remedy covers, is not relevant to the case at
hand. In my view:
It's not a question of "How well does Lach fit the dog/cat?"
It's a case of "How well does the dog/cat fit into Lach?"
I'm not bothered therefore by any lack of a Lach key symptom - or even
all the key sx in the animal - as long as what the animal has, IS there
in LAch.
It would be extremely limiting of the power of our remedies to expect
keynote symptoms to always be there.
For example I handled a case of Boomslang bite (snake bite in which the
individual usually dies of internal bleeding in about 24 hrs) with LAch
- and there were no throat issues. It would have been a mistake to omit
LAch for want of throat issues. The symptom present did fit well into
LAch's rubric list.
Oh well oops for me then! That's what I get for responding first and
reading the next para second:-))
I'd like more info too but currently do not have it.
Not one of those is in *acute* kidney failure however.
Do you not see the type of kidney failure as relevant?
It's not really a regular kidney failure as in functional loss, so much
as physical grinding of kidney tissue, painfully, by the crystals that form.
Apis includes acute kidney failure but not the bleeding well.
Sorry I do not see that one at all here...
Again I am stuck on the acute issue of the crystal damage.
And I do not look for Ars symptoms in the individual - but illness
symptoms in the remedy.
After acute kidney failure the strongest symptoms is refusal to eat -
which is not typical at all in Phos and indeed not present. Nor is acute
kidney failure in Phos.
Interesting that a rat poison case was helped but I'm willing to bet it
was the kind of poison that causes internal bleeding - warfarin style
rather that the current exotic drug that makes crystals that fill the
kidney.
This is just as I'd expect with old style rat poison.
Acute kidney failure is thus not involved as it is in our situation.
I can not see any excuse to leave out the main issue of acute kidney
failure from the repping in the current situaiton!
again - no acute kidney failure:-)
We need to stick to the knitting - and the acute kidney failure IS the
"knitting" here.
There are lots of different rat poisons - and the current one is not
comparable; it works by an entirely different approach - and that DOES
matter.
No not at all.
Here we see as first sign - refusal to eat anything at all.
Next sign is acute kidney failure due to build up of crystals in the
kidneys, with associated severe pain.
ONE case only - took place over weeks. That one developed a tongue
ulcer, an ear hematoma and with cancer and diabetes in the background,
it finally developed the acute kidney failure with crystals etc. AFTER
that it developed bleeding at the terminal stage.
The bleeding was not part of the initial poisoning response as in
regular rat poisoning nor is it there in most cases which die at the
acute kidney failure stage from thye kidney damage from the drug
crystals - before ever getting to the bleeding at the end.
Old style rat poison works by causing internal bleeding - but that's
not the main problem here with this drug. that's why Phos suits the old
rat poison, not the new.
No the rubric is:
KIDNEY - Renal Failure, acute.
It may well be incomplete, but not by leaving out the ones you mentioned
which are polycrests like Phos - as they have been well used for long
enough to KNOW if acute kidney failure is handled well or not.
None of the cases you cited involves *acute* kidney failure - so I am
not seeing any argument in their favour in acute kidney failure when the
repertory does not have it either.
In Radar 9 there are 24 for acute kidney failure:
I do not know how to copy and paste from there to here (knew how in
Radar 7 but the same does not work here) but will type them out:
am-c, anthraci, Apis, bapt, canth, Carb-ac, Crot-h, cupr, Cupr-act,
cupr-ar, dig, germ-met, Hydr-ac, Hyos, Lach, lat-m, Laur, Morph, Op,
pic-ac, plb, sec, Stram.
Before I got more detail on cases I initially suggested Plb for one cat,
and it did keep a cat going, but I think the Lach will hopefully do it
better.
This has subrubrics of acute (as above 24 Rx) and chronic (45 rx).
For chronic kidney failure with dropsy yes - and for acute inflammation
of kidneys but I don;t see it for acute failure of kidneys.
Not what we see here - we see physical kidney damage.
not present
also not present
also not present.
Eel serum has lots of kidney uses but I don't see it in this case.
But thank you for the writeup details and discussion.
or aspects of this toxin
I do not see that either and wrote my analysis separately.
The GI hemorrage has been seen in one case only - and then only right
before death.
It's not the mode of action of the rat poison (as it would be in old
style rat poison)
We need to cater form what THIS drug is doing.
Ter is not for acute kidney failure. Nor does it cover refusal to eat,
mind- laziness, mouth bleeding, mouth ulcers, skin eruption blood
blisters or lab high creatinine. It has only 4 of the key 11 rubrics,
and lacks the most important.
Thank you for your input as well.
I think we have been led astray by the hemorrahage issue (a minor rare
one) over the acute kidney damage from crystals (a consistent killer and
main issue) and have not seen these in relevant perspective to the case.
Indeed.
But it never hurts to have logical discussion and thrash out the awkward
aspects and nitty gritty details.
We - or I anyway - learn things along the way that come in handy at
other times.
Thanks!
Have a great Sunday.
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
-
Christine Wyndham-Thomas
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
I hope you don't mind me putting my 2p-worth in, and in no way am I taking sides on this issue, but I am doing studies with the BIH and I find getting involved with repertorising now and again a good exercise for me generally. I am using Hompath 8 computer software and the rubrics below were found under Complete. I couldn't find all the rubric
MIND, Eating, refuses
MOUTH, Hemorrhage: continuous, does not coagulate
MOUTH, Ulcers, tongue
RECTUM, Hemorrhage: anus, from
KIDNEYS, defective, elimination of
KIDNEYS, Pain: general, extrending bladder, to
SKIN, Eruptions: blisters, blood filled
The top five remedies were Ars, Lach, Phyt, Kali chi and Lyc (7)
followed by Bar-c, Chin, Nit-ac. Sulph, Psor (6)
Couldn't find kidney failure but under Clarke found: RENAL, dropsy and when added to the above list, the order of remedies didn't change at all.
Lach showed up in four of the rubrics - RECTUM, Hemorrhage from anus (3)
MOUTH, Ulcers, tongue (2)
SKIN, Eruptions, blisters, blood filled (1)
MIND, eating, refuses (1)
Ter showed up in one - RECTUM, Hemorrhage from anus (1)
Christine
www.dogsonholiday-uk.com
www.homoeopathyclassical.com
MIND, Eating, refuses
MOUTH, Hemorrhage: continuous, does not coagulate
MOUTH, Ulcers, tongue
RECTUM, Hemorrhage: anus, from
KIDNEYS, defective, elimination of
KIDNEYS, Pain: general, extrending bladder, to
SKIN, Eruptions: blisters, blood filled
The top five remedies were Ars, Lach, Phyt, Kali chi and Lyc (7)
followed by Bar-c, Chin, Nit-ac. Sulph, Psor (6)
Couldn't find kidney failure but under Clarke found: RENAL, dropsy and when added to the above list, the order of remedies didn't change at all.
Lach showed up in four of the rubrics - RECTUM, Hemorrhage from anus (3)
MOUTH, Ulcers, tongue (2)
SKIN, Eruptions, blisters, blood filled (1)
MIND, eating, refuses (1)
Ter showed up in one - RECTUM, Hemorrhage from anus (1)
Christine
www.dogsonholiday-uk.com
www.homoeopathyclassical.com
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
Terebinthina is in Mouth ulcers/aphthae, haemorrhage from mouth and
rectum,in so many rubrics relating to kidneys because of its affinity,
also skin ecchymosis (which covers haematoma) and as it has already
been pointed out the refusal to eat is to be expected in a situation
like this and it is not even necessary to rep it but 'appetite
wanting'or 'appetite loss' would suffice and Ter is in the appropriate
appetite rubrics.
When you don't have any sensations recorded and extensions or even any
reliable modalities then it is dangerous ground to turn generals into
particulars - far better to keep with them as general sx, i.e.
ulceration, haemorrhage, kidney failure etc.
If that helps. Joy
http://www.joylucashomeopathy
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Dogs_on_Holiday_UK"
wrote:
taking sides on this issue, but I am doing studies with the BIH and I
find getting involved with repertorising now and again a good exercise
for me generally. I am using Hompath 8 computer software and the
rubrics below were found under Complete. I couldn't find all the rubric
and when added to the above list, the order of remedies didn't change
at all.
Ulcers, tongue (2)
Eruptions, blisters, blood filled (1)
eating, refuses (1)
poison in pet food - LONG
concomitants.
and purplish
suggestion
not
always
picture in
even
there
which the
LAch
omit
thorough
about Lach.
failure
Ser-ang,
much
that form.
or Apocynum,
for small
bright red rather
considering Phos,
digestive set
large amount
acute
bet it
doses from rat
cause of
half an hour
irritation of the
and may be
There is
After a few
septicaemia.
parts; the liver
blood is
symptom,
foot appeared
patient
gastric and
the
DOES
interestingly similar to
background,
AFTER
the old
incomplete
mentioned
when the
one cat,
do it
germ-met.srj5
inflammation
eat,
observations
rare
killer and
case.
awkward
rectum,in so many rubrics relating to kidneys because of its affinity,
also skin ecchymosis (which covers haematoma) and as it has already
been pointed out the refusal to eat is to be expected in a situation
like this and it is not even necessary to rep it but 'appetite
wanting'or 'appetite loss' would suffice and Ter is in the appropriate
appetite rubrics.
When you don't have any sensations recorded and extensions or even any
reliable modalities then it is dangerous ground to turn generals into
particulars - far better to keep with them as general sx, i.e.
ulceration, haemorrhage, kidney failure etc.
If that helps. Joy
http://www.joylucashomeopathy
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "Dogs_on_Holiday_UK"
wrote:
taking sides on this issue, but I am doing studies with the BIH and I
find getting involved with repertorising now and again a good exercise
for me generally. I am using Hompath 8 computer software and the
rubrics below were found under Complete. I couldn't find all the rubric
and when added to the above list, the order of remedies didn't change
at all.
Ulcers, tongue (2)
Eruptions, blisters, blood filled (1)
eating, refuses (1)
poison in pet food - LONG
concomitants.
and purplish
suggestion
not
always
picture in
even
there
which the
LAch
omit
thorough
about Lach.
failure
Ser-ang,
much
that form.
or Apocynum,
for small
bright red rather
considering Phos,
digestive set
large amount
acute
bet it
doses from rat
cause of
half an hour
irritation of the
and may be
There is
After a few
septicaemia.
parts; the liver
blood is
symptom,
foot appeared
patient
gastric and
the
DOES
interestingly similar to
background,
AFTER
the old
incomplete
mentioned
when the
one cat,
do it
germ-met.srj5
inflammation
eat,
observations
rare
killer and
case.
awkward
-
Rosemary C Hyde PhD
- Posts: 392
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
Thanks, Irene, for clarifying the order of symptoms -- that was helpful in
getting more insight into your thought process -- i.e. the fact that refusal
to eat was the first apparent symptom, and that the bleeding came after the
fact. This sequence wasn't so apparent in your previous presentation.
Warmly, Rosemary
getting more insight into your thought process -- i.e. the fact that refusal
to eat was the first apparent symptom, and that the bleeding came after the
fact. This sequence wasn't so apparent in your previous presentation.
Warmly, Rosemary
-
Luise Kunkle
- Posts: 1180
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:00 pm
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
Hi all concerned,
let me just add my tuppence worth of idea. It is not supposed to
be opposition or detraction from any of the others - jus a different
approach - for whatever it may be worth.
From what Irene describes, the following seems to be happening:
The poison causes crystals in the blood. As the kidneys filter the
blood - shich they do continuously - those crystals get stuck and/or
damage the kidneys. This leads to blood in the urine and to
non-function of the kidneys (acute kidney failure) which in turn leads
to the symptoms of uremia. Most of the symptoms are symptoms of this
uremia.
This is similar to what happens in gout. In gout the problem also is
the crystals of urate. Most of them are taken care of by depositing
them in various parts of the body, most prominently in the small
joints.
However, there may be this same problem in the kidneys. The urates
crystals do get in and may cause similar complaints as that described
in the cats. Death for this reason is rare, but does happen.
So I should consider "gout" remedies.
Berberis is interesting in this connection. I found the following in
Farringtons Clinical Materia Medica.
*********
Berberis acts more on the kidneys and bladder than on any other parts
of the body.....
... I would recommend Berberis in certain affections, as peritonitis,
metritis etc. when marked by the Berberis kidney sx. We find in the
renal region sticking, digging,tearing pains, worse from deep
pressure, FOR THEY ARE EVIDENTLY IN THE KIDNEYS THEMSELVES [my own
caps] ......
....It is also a very useful drug in gout when characteristic urinary
symptoms are present
*********
The last sentence I would interprete: in those instances of acute gout
where the crystals have got into the kidneys and cause the typical
symptoms.
Regards
Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========
let me just add my tuppence worth of idea. It is not supposed to
be opposition or detraction from any of the others - jus a different
approach - for whatever it may be worth.
From what Irene describes, the following seems to be happening:
The poison causes crystals in the blood. As the kidneys filter the
blood - shich they do continuously - those crystals get stuck and/or
damage the kidneys. This leads to blood in the urine and to
non-function of the kidneys (acute kidney failure) which in turn leads
to the symptoms of uremia. Most of the symptoms are symptoms of this
uremia.
This is similar to what happens in gout. In gout the problem also is
the crystals of urate. Most of them are taken care of by depositing
them in various parts of the body, most prominently in the small
joints.
However, there may be this same problem in the kidneys. The urates
crystals do get in and may cause similar complaints as that described
in the cats. Death for this reason is rare, but does happen.
So I should consider "gout" remedies.
Berberis is interesting in this connection. I found the following in
Farringtons Clinical Materia Medica.
*********
Berberis acts more on the kidneys and bladder than on any other parts
of the body.....
... I would recommend Berberis in certain affections, as peritonitis,
metritis etc. when marked by the Berberis kidney sx. We find in the
renal region sticking, digging,tearing pains, worse from deep
pressure, FOR THEY ARE EVIDENTLY IN THE KIDNEYS THEMSELVES [my own
caps] ......
....It is also a very useful drug in gout when characteristic urinary
symptoms are present
*********
The last sentence I would interprete: in those instances of acute gout
where the crystals have got into the kidneys and cause the typical
symptoms.
Regards
Luise
--
One thought to all who, free of doubt,
So definitely know what's true:
2 and 2 is 22 -
and 2 times 2 is 2:-)
==========> ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========
-
Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
Dogs_on_Holiday_UK wrote:
On the contrary - more ideas are always a good thing.
It's not a competition - nor a game - so there are no sides, just a keen
interest to find what might be good to do for these poisoned pets.
repertorising now and again a good exercise for me generally.. I am
using Hompath 8 computer software>
Not one I know - as a separate topic later - what do you think of it?
the rubric
That to me seems odd, I wonder if trhere is some other terminology being
used that "hides" it? Maybe acute renal failure or???
Dropsy implies edema or fluid collecting in the body because the kidneys
can not function. So far have not seen dropsy - but also have seen
awfully few cases.
at all.
Thanks Chrinstine for chipping in and it's nice that it is from another
repertory.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
On the contrary - more ideas are always a good thing.
It's not a competition - nor a game - so there are no sides, just a keen
interest to find what might be good to do for these poisoned pets.
repertorising now and again a good exercise for me generally.. I am
using Hompath 8 computer software>
Not one I know - as a separate topic later - what do you think of it?
the rubric
That to me seems odd, I wonder if trhere is some other terminology being
used that "hides" it? Maybe acute renal failure or???
Dropsy implies edema or fluid collecting in the body because the kidneys
can not function. So far have not seen dropsy - but also have seen
awfully few cases.
at all.
Thanks Chrinstine for chipping in and it's nice that it is from another
repertory.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
-
Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
Rosemary C Hyde PhD wrote:
Sorry about that - I realize it does make a difference.
NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
Sorry about that - I realize it does make a difference.
NAmaste,
IRene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
-
Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
Luise Kunkle wrote:
In the kidneys - dunno about the blood.
In gout it's the blood hence crystals in joints.
No joint pain in this syndrome.
Kidney failure yes but not acute kidney failure.
In gout it is a slow process over time.
In this case, toxicity and renal failure can take just a few hours.
As I understand it there is no uremia here. Uremia is a toxic condition
due to retaining *nitrogenous* substances in the blood that are normally
excreted by a healthy kidney.
Here the toxic condition is not due to normal nitrogenous waste build-up
in the blood but due to toxic aminopterin precipitation in the kidneys.
Clinically what was measured was very high creatinine levels - a
nonprotein substance that is alkaline in urine (hence helping to
precipitate other substances to crystals inside the kidney.) If I
understand correctly this helped precipitate the aminopterin crystals
there in the kidneys. Urine pH is critical in carnivores especially in
cats - and must be acid to avoid crystals forming. (pH must be 6.5 or
below, with a target of 5.5 being preferable). Any tendency to alkaline
urine does cause crystals in the *urine*.
In the blood.
Here we have crystals in the kidneys/urine, not the blood.
Most of them are taken care of by depositing
Hence the joint pain of gout.
No joint pain here - just kidney pain.
Thank you for the ideas.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
In the kidneys - dunno about the blood.
In gout it's the blood hence crystals in joints.
No joint pain in this syndrome.
Kidney failure yes but not acute kidney failure.
In gout it is a slow process over time.
In this case, toxicity and renal failure can take just a few hours.
As I understand it there is no uremia here. Uremia is a toxic condition
due to retaining *nitrogenous* substances in the blood that are normally
excreted by a healthy kidney.
Here the toxic condition is not due to normal nitrogenous waste build-up
in the blood but due to toxic aminopterin precipitation in the kidneys.
Clinically what was measured was very high creatinine levels - a
nonprotein substance that is alkaline in urine (hence helping to
precipitate other substances to crystals inside the kidney.) If I
understand correctly this helped precipitate the aminopterin crystals
there in the kidneys. Urine pH is critical in carnivores especially in
cats - and must be acid to avoid crystals forming. (pH must be 6.5 or
below, with a target of 5.5 being preferable). Any tendency to alkaline
urine does cause crystals in the *urine*.
In the blood.
Here we have crystals in the kidneys/urine, not the blood.
Most of them are taken care of by depositing
Hence the joint pain of gout.
No joint pain here - just kidney pain.
Thank you for the ideas.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.angelfire.com/fl/furryboots/clickhere.html (Veterinary Homeopath.)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
-
Luise Kunkle
- Posts: 1180
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:00 pm
Re: Possible homeopathy for aminopterin rat poison in pet food - LONG
Hi Irene,
ok - is not relevant
It is similar.
In gout there is a condition of high uric acid levels in the blood and
this leads to formation of crystals in joints and also in kidneys (see
below)
In the cat cases there is this poison. (It is probably in the blood) -
in any case it leads to formation of crystals in the kidneys.
So this part is similar, and this part is what causes the main problem
(kidney failure)
Is not necessarily in Berberis either.
In a case of gout attack with pain in the kidneys, or in the case of
chronic gout where there is an attack of kidney pains, it is quite
reasonable to assume that the pain results from crystals in the
kidneys.
Since most of the crystals form in the joints it is also easy to
understand why the crystals in the kidneys do not usually cause acute
renal failure. Still the mechanism just may be quite similar.
Right - in a healthy kidney they are filtered out. Wherre the kidney
is not working, as in kidney failure (acute or chronic), uremia should
occur.
This also has its parallel in gout
*************
Relation between creatinine and uric acid excretion.
Y Nishida
Health Administration Center, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies,
Japan.
Abstract
The relation between creatinine and uric acid metabolism was analysed
in 77 male patients with primary gout and 62 healthy male subjects.
Significant positive correlations between 24 hour urinary creatinine
and uric acid excretion were shown in both groups. The mean urinary
creatinine and uric acid excretions in the patients with gout were
significantly increased as compared with those of normal male
controls. These results suggest that there is a close correlation
between creatinine and uric acid synthesis. In addition, it seems that
accelerated uric acid synthesis seen in some patients with gout is due
to increased creatinine synthesis. (From Annals of Rheumatic Diseases)
**************
a
Here is some abstracts about gout crystals in kidneys.
************
An abnormality in handling uric acid can cause attacks of painful
arthritis (gout attack), kidney stones, and blockage of the kidney
tubules
with uric acid crystals, leading to kidney failure. (Reports From
National Arthritis Meeting)
-------------
* Farebrother DA,
* Pincott JR,
* Simmons HA,
* Warren DJ,
* Dillon MJ,
* Cameron JS.
Gout is principally a disease of middle-aged men. There has been a lot
of
discussion over the cause of the renal lesion, whether it is age,
hypertension or crystal induced, as single factors or in combination.
We
have recently been able to study renal biopsies from three related
young
women with an hereditary gout, and another girl with
2,8-dihydroxyadenine
crystal nephropathy. All were normotensive. These findings were
compared
with the findings of a crystal-induced nephropathy in pigs. In the
renal
biopsies many stages of acute and chronic nephritis were found which
were
similar to the crystal nephropathy in pigs. We concluded that the
cause of
the original lesion in the women was crystal deposition in the
tubules,
that crystals were not necessary to keep a non-specific nephritis
active
and that age and hypertension need not be contributory factors. (from
PubMed)
--------------
Urinary Tract Disease: - Ultimately, kidney disease due to
hyperuricemia
may be the most critical complication of gout. Uric acid crystals
accumulate within the substance of the kidney and can lead to a
progressive decline in kidney function and cause nephropathy.
Alternatively, a sudden blockage of the flow of urine through the
ureters
due to a precipitation of uric acid crystals can develop (acute
obstructive uropathy). (From Internet Health Library)
************
Below is from Hering's Guiding Symptoms of Berberis.
URINARY ORGANS. [21] [Berb.]
All just fyi.
Regards
Luise
In lumbar and renal region a pressing straining, shooting or bruising
pain, extending to thighs, with stiffness, numbness and sensation of
warmth, which prevents raising body and rising up.
Pressive or tensive pain in region of loins and kidneys, sometimes on
one side, sometimes on both or frequently across small of back, at
times extending downward into posterior portion of pelvis, of thighs,
and even to calves, with a feeling of stiffness and lameness, or
swelling of back or lower extremities.
Sticking or sticking-pressing pain, at times slight, at times very
sensitive, in one or other lumbar region, now in a small spot which is
a simple sticking, now in a larger place, when it is chiefly pressing,
either exactly in region of kidneys, or at times extending above or
below, but especially outward, so that it extends around side of
abdomen in front or to region of hips, sometimes also in spine and
extending down to small of back, and region of bladder and groins,
sometimes fine, sometimes dull ; sticking sometimes extends from
region of kidneys straight forward into abdomen, and at times with a
numb, paralyzed, bruised sensation, frequently returning and lasting a
long time.
Tearing pain in region of both kidneys, soon after rising in morning,
which extends sideways and forward, both upward and downward, so that
whole region of back between pelvis and thorax is affected.
Tearing, or tearing-sticking pain in region of loins and kidneys,
usually when standing.
Cutting pain from left kidney into bladder, urethra, and in penis.
Stitches from kidneys to bladder and urethra.
Stinging, burning, gnawing pain on a small spot near kidneys,
increased by pressing hard upon, and moving frequently downward or
forward.
Stitching or tearing in renal region and adjoining parts, with
numbness and soreness, increased by hard external pressure.
A sticking-digging, or digging-tearing pain in one or other kidney
region, as if it was suppurating ; ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========
ok - is not relevant
It is similar.
In gout there is a condition of high uric acid levels in the blood and
this leads to formation of crystals in joints and also in kidneys (see
below)
In the cat cases there is this poison. (It is probably in the blood) -
in any case it leads to formation of crystals in the kidneys.
So this part is similar, and this part is what causes the main problem
(kidney failure)
Is not necessarily in Berberis either.
In a case of gout attack with pain in the kidneys, or in the case of
chronic gout where there is an attack of kidney pains, it is quite
reasonable to assume that the pain results from crystals in the
kidneys.
Since most of the crystals form in the joints it is also easy to
understand why the crystals in the kidneys do not usually cause acute
renal failure. Still the mechanism just may be quite similar.
Right - in a healthy kidney they are filtered out. Wherre the kidney
is not working, as in kidney failure (acute or chronic), uremia should
occur.
This also has its parallel in gout
*************
Relation between creatinine and uric acid excretion.
Y Nishida
Health Administration Center, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies,
Japan.
Abstract
The relation between creatinine and uric acid metabolism was analysed
in 77 male patients with primary gout and 62 healthy male subjects.
Significant positive correlations between 24 hour urinary creatinine
and uric acid excretion were shown in both groups. The mean urinary
creatinine and uric acid excretions in the patients with gout were
significantly increased as compared with those of normal male
controls. These results suggest that there is a close correlation
between creatinine and uric acid synthesis. In addition, it seems that
accelerated uric acid synthesis seen in some patients with gout is due
to increased creatinine synthesis. (From Annals of Rheumatic Diseases)
**************
a
Here is some abstracts about gout crystals in kidneys.
************
An abnormality in handling uric acid can cause attacks of painful
arthritis (gout attack), kidney stones, and blockage of the kidney
tubules
with uric acid crystals, leading to kidney failure. (Reports From
National Arthritis Meeting)
-------------
* Farebrother DA,
* Pincott JR,
* Simmons HA,
* Warren DJ,
* Dillon MJ,
* Cameron JS.
Gout is principally a disease of middle-aged men. There has been a lot
of
discussion over the cause of the renal lesion, whether it is age,
hypertension or crystal induced, as single factors or in combination.
We
have recently been able to study renal biopsies from three related
young
women with an hereditary gout, and another girl with
2,8-dihydroxyadenine
crystal nephropathy. All were normotensive. These findings were
compared
with the findings of a crystal-induced nephropathy in pigs. In the
renal
biopsies many stages of acute and chronic nephritis were found which
were
similar to the crystal nephropathy in pigs. We concluded that the
cause of
the original lesion in the women was crystal deposition in the
tubules,
that crystals were not necessary to keep a non-specific nephritis
active
and that age and hypertension need not be contributory factors. (from
PubMed)
--------------
Urinary Tract Disease: - Ultimately, kidney disease due to
hyperuricemia
may be the most critical complication of gout. Uric acid crystals
accumulate within the substance of the kidney and can lead to a
progressive decline in kidney function and cause nephropathy.
Alternatively, a sudden blockage of the flow of urine through the
ureters
due to a precipitation of uric acid crystals can develop (acute
obstructive uropathy). (From Internet Health Library)
************
Below is from Hering's Guiding Symptoms of Berberis.
URINARY ORGANS. [21] [Berb.]
All just fyi.
Regards
Luise
In lumbar and renal region a pressing straining, shooting or bruising
pain, extending to thighs, with stiffness, numbness and sensation of
warmth, which prevents raising body and rising up.
Pressive or tensive pain in region of loins and kidneys, sometimes on
one side, sometimes on both or frequently across small of back, at
times extending downward into posterior portion of pelvis, of thighs,
and even to calves, with a feeling of stiffness and lameness, or
swelling of back or lower extremities.
Sticking or sticking-pressing pain, at times slight, at times very
sensitive, in one or other lumbar region, now in a small spot which is
a simple sticking, now in a larger place, when it is chiefly pressing,
either exactly in region of kidneys, or at times extending above or
below, but especially outward, so that it extends around side of
abdomen in front or to region of hips, sometimes also in spine and
extending down to small of back, and region of bladder and groins,
sometimes fine, sometimes dull ; sticking sometimes extends from
region of kidneys straight forward into abdomen, and at times with a
numb, paralyzed, bruised sensation, frequently returning and lasting a
long time.
Tearing pain in region of both kidneys, soon after rising in morning,
which extends sideways and forward, both upward and downward, so that
whole region of back between pelvis and thorax is affected.
Tearing, or tearing-sticking pain in region of loins and kidneys,
usually when standing.
Cutting pain from left kidney into bladder, urethra, and in penis.
Stitches from kidneys to bladder and urethra.
Stinging, burning, gnawing pain on a small spot near kidneys,
increased by pressing hard upon, and moving frequently downward or
forward.
Stitching or tearing in renal region and adjoining parts, with
numbness and soreness, increased by hard external pressure.
A sticking-digging, or digging-tearing pain in one or other kidney
region, as if it was suppurating ; ICQ yinyang 96391801 <==========