Offtopic - vitamins (was ionspa/aqua chi)

[DCR]

Shannon,

As with homeopathic remedies - vitamins may be used appropriately, to set the stage for healing, maintain a level of quality health and healing, or totally misused or abused. I have more trouble convincing my clients to throw away those standard vitamins offered on most store shelves (which are total junk) - until they see that they are made synthetically - often from petroleum products. The medical community and the pharmaceutical community (hmmmm - perhaps they are one in the same) don't care if you benefit from them or not - and consistently recommend very poor, synthetic, . . . . oh my - I can rant for hours on this topic.

Part of the problem - which you clearly identify - is that the typical diet is frequently void of the basic materials we need to maintain basic levels of cellular metabolism, much less health and healing at a optimum level. As I'm sure you are well aware, the overused soil no longer imparts the same mix of nutrients to the plants, the crops are selected for specific traits (which do not include their old nutritional components), the processing, picking unripe to be shipped all over the world, etc etc etc (and don't even get me started on what they are feeding the selectively bred meat animals ) - all mean we are not obtaining the same nutrients we once did from the same foods. I would argue that stress and environmental toxins create a higher usage rate of vitamins and minerals than our ancestors faced. So a large portion of the population is forced into 'deficiency' conditions and kept there.

Part of the problem is that there is a large variation in individual needs - based on activity (a farmer has very different needs from an office manager), stress, time of life, climate, etc.

Part of the problem is that there is a VERY significant range between the level required to prevent deficiency disease (the US RDA represents this level), and the levels required for optimum health and healing.

While I certainly agree with you that natural (non-synthetic) vitamins are best when taken in appropriate conbinations of required co-factors in doses suitable to the individual and situation - I do not agree that they cause artificial diseases - any more than the lack of necessary building blocks has already caused diseases (or perhaps more accurately susceptibility to diseases). The body has many mechanisms for eliminating excess - but no effective way to substitute for deficiencies.

Rather than promoting 'quibbles' about such a vital component of basic health - I would like to see us promoting education about the basic nutritional needs of individuals. I believe this is in harmony with H's concepts of healing involving the critical components of lifestyle and diet.

[Gail]

I think the point that Shannon makes about not needing extra
vitamins when on a good remedy is very important. The need for extra
vitamins can indicate that something is happening in the body that
needs to be addressed - eg heavy metals blocking metabollic pathways
or possibly miasmatic damage. In this case extra vitamins only
appear to fix the problem, what they are really doing is helping
you live comfortably with it.
If there is no other treatment available they are essential for a
high quality of life. But if we treat homoeopathically we need to
know the symptoms that the vitamins are treating - and I assume it
is the same with the machines - why are they needed? what is
happening in the body/mind/emotions so that an outside support is
needed? What are the symptoms that arise if the vitamins or machine
useage are stopped?

Gail
--- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, "DCR" wrote:
to set the stage for healing, maintain a level of quality health and
healing, or totally misused or abused. I have more trouble
convincing my clients to throw away those standard vitamins offered
on most store shelves (which are total junk) - until they see that
they are made synthetically - often from petroleum products. The
medical community and the pharmaceutical community (hmmmm - perhaps
they are one in the same) don't care if you benefit from them or
not - and consistently recommend very poor, synthetic, . . . . oh
my - I can rant for hours on this topic.
typical diet is frequently void of the basic materials we need to
maintain basic levels of cellular metabolism, much less health and
healing at a optimum level. As I'm sure you are well aware, the
overused soil no longer imparts the same mix of nutrients to the
plants, the crops are selected for specific traits (which do not
include their old nutritional components), the processing, picking
unripe to be shipped all over the world, etc etc etc (and don't
even get me started on what they are feeding the selectively bred
meat animals ) - all mean we are not obtaining the same nutrients we
once did from the same foods. I would argue that stress and
environmental toxins create a higher usage rate of vitamins and
minerals than our ancestors faced. So a large portion of the
population is forced into 'deficiency' conditions and kept there.
individual needs - based on activity (a farmer has very different
needs from an office manager), stress, time of life, climate, etc.
between the level required to prevent deficiency disease (the US RDA
represents this level), and the levels required for optimum health
and healing.
vitamins are best when taken in appropriate conbinations of required
co-factors in doses suitable to the individual and situation - I do
not agree that they cause artificial diseases - any more than the
lack of necessary building blocks has already caused diseases (or
perhaps more accurately susceptibility to diseases). The body has
many mechanisms for eliminating excess - but no effective way to
substitute for deficiencies.
basic health - I would like to see us promoting education about the
basic nutritional needs of individuals. I believe this is in
harmony with H's concepts of healing involving the critical
components of lifestyle and diet.
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[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Donna,
Just briefly--
The reason I hold this opinion (that excess amounts of single nutrients
can lead to "artificial deficiency" of co-factors) is that I have
experienced it myself on more than a few occasions, and only figured
out what was happening, and how to right it, through TONS of reading
and lots of (painful and expensive) trial-and-error spanning several
decades.

E.g. nearly all commercial B-complex formulas are *hugely* deficient in
pantothenic acid--proportionately to e.g. B1, B2, B6. For someone
whose need for that nutrient is already unusually high (e.g. the
chronically "stressed", adrenally depleted), those formulas can just be
absolute poison. (Albeit a short-lived poison, since they are
water-soluble and thankfully not stored in the body for long.) But if
the appropriate amounts of pantothenic acid and vitamin C are added,
they may be very useful. (Must not be an issue for most people, but
for some of us it's a HUGE issue.)

E.g. I found that in myself, taking extra-high (proportionate to B2 and
B6) doses of B1, will (unquestionably) give rise to a particularly B2
deficiency symptom--painful cracks at the sides of the mouth.

And, I have found that, for myself and my son both (and I don't know
whether this is common or uncommon), calcium and magnesium have to be
taken in the right proportion to each other, or else it makes the
problem worse (e.g. sleeplessness, restlessness) rather than
better--sometimes very strikingly so!
And that is part of the point; if A and B are used by the body *in
equal amounts*, and A initiates the metabolic pathways to begin, but B
is taken only half as much, then B will wind up as "deficient", even
tho it's being supplemented. As in my B1 / B2 example above--if I take
no B2 other than what is in food, I have no (obvious) B2 deficiency
symptoms. But if I take a bunch of B2 along with a hugely *bigger*
bunch of B1, then I *will* create B2 defiency symptom in myself. But
someone under other circumstances (hard physical work?) might need the
higher proportion of B1.

I know this by personal experience, but I have also read it in other
places (Adele Davis was the first place I read it, but elsewhere too,
far more recently, but where...)--so I know "it's not just me."

Actually, I don't really think it's a "quibble"... (Tho I may have
used the word myself.) In some cases it is important to be aware of...
If the basis of "good nutrition" is *food*, then there are fewer
worries. But like you, I find that in some cases "good food" is not
enough, and supplements are helpful (short- or long-term, tho not so
much once "the remedy" is found). Just being aware that there *are*
issues, is IMO a decent start.
would--try something else! Read, think, "intuit", and experiment.
(With guidance if possible / necessary!)
feeling icky, sometimes the best next step is to "stop everything",
re-balance, see what you are trying to treat, and try again, maybe more
simply... (But for most people, handsful of pills should not be
needed!)

To my mind this should be part of the education--learning to know what
results one is *looking* for, and having some idea of what to do if the
results aren't meeting expectation. Hope this makes sense to you?
Best,
Shannon
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[DCR]

Since this is off topic - this will be my last response.
You make my point exactly - the irresponsible use of 'extra high' doses of various vitamins based on readings here and there is exactly what causes problems - not the responsible and professional use of supplements when and as needed for the individual, at appropriate levels, and in proper combination. I would have asked why did you feel the need to take 'extra high doses of B1? (enough to cause B2 deficiency) and what was your source of that B1? Who would be prescribing such high doses?
If someone did some personal research and decided to take a remedy at 50M 3 times a day for a month - would you say that was responsible homeopathy? Just because they are available 'over the counter' - does not mean nutrients, herbs, or homeopathic remedies are without consequences when used inappropriately.

You say "If someone is taking "everything", handsful of vitamins, and still
feeling icky, sometimes the best next step is to "stop everything",
re-balance, see what you are trying to treat, and try again, maybe more
simply... (But for most people, handsful of pills should not be
needed!)"

Well - that is basic common sense. However you need to ask where did they get the idea to take hands full of anything? If they are taking hands full of Advil or Motrin and still feeling icky - what would anyone say? If someone came to you and said they were taking 10 to 20 homeopathic remedies a day (based on their reading) - and still felt icky - how would you respond? I most frequently find those people did 'some reading' and started adding one thing after another (sometimes in very high doses - and typically synthetic) - not knowing how basic metabolism or chemistry works, and do get themselves sicker and sicker - but that is not to say vitamins are irrelevant to their long term health or healing program. I also find most people start mega vitamins prior to cleaning out their bowels - and that causes MAJOR problems. Sort of like flushing a sewer system into a house.

You say: To my mind this should be part of the education--learning to know what
results one is *looking* for, and having some idea of what to do if the
results aren't meeting expectation. Hope this makes sense to you?

Absolutely. Education is key. But then - that's exactly the same advice for using homeopathy. It is a tool. It can be used properly - or not. The major difference is that nutrients are required for cellular metabolism on a daily basis. We can operate in a deficient state for years. We can deliberately restrict our intake (poor diet choices, fad diets, etc.) or have the nutrients stripped (by pharmaceuticals, toxins, stress, etc.) and still survive. However, this sets up a state of susceptibility. The vast majority of us live in the cellular 'in between' zone, somewhere between deficiency disease and vibrant health. No obvious symptoms are seen in this zone. We function - but in a quagmire - not at our best. Nutrition and appropriate supplementation (when needed), are a significant part of the picture of healing and long term health - so back to my original point - education is key.

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Donna,
And this will be my last.
Yes, i agree!!! Really that was my main point in replying--supplements
can be wonderfully useful when needed, but should be treated with some
prior understanding and respect. ("Suck it and see" is okay too, if
part of an ongoing exploration and education.)
As I said--wheat germ and/or sunflower seeds. I didn't do it on
purpose, just was already aware that those cracks are considered a B2
deficiency symptom; so when I saw them on myself, and realized the
possible wheat germ / sunflower seed connection, I looked up the
nutrient content of the foods, and that is what I found. No
prescribing, just unbalanced eating plus susceptibility.
Mm, check out the supplements on drug store shelves... Some are
*extremely* high in B1--or at least were, several decades ago when last
I looked.
Right. I think the vitamin errors are more "user friendly" than high
potency remedy errors, but same basic idea.

BUT--not always obvious to the person in the situation--I have that
from personal experience, too!
Most of my family and many of my friends have decades-long histories of
self-management through nutritional supplements, instead of doctor
visits and prescriptions. This habit has got a decades-long head start
on my knowledge of homeopathy, and I still consider it a *much* better
option the using MDs to "fill in the gaps" (*much* better!!!). I am in
my 50s, and started actively working with my severe health issues at
about age 16. At that point it was very much a do-it-yourself
thing--do it yourself (read, experiment; read, experiment...), or work
with the local MD.
But we were not talking about drugs.
I'm not sure why this feels like we are arguing...
You are saying the same things I was saying--yes vitamins can be
*excellent*, but need to be approached with some learning, respect, and
attention to the reasons and response.

Some people think (honestly!) that if they've "tried vitamins" and
didn't get helped (or even felt worse), then they should give up on
vitamins. Not so! (Tho getting that "constitutional remedy" may make
it blessedly irrelevant--at least for the time.)
Absolutely. That's what I was saying.
We are in agreement.
Cheers,
Shannon
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[DCR]

We need to carefully dissect the use of vitamins (basic nutritional needs vs vitamin therapies) and not 'throw out the baby with the bath water'. On the one hand - if we had perfect food sources, perfect diets, perfect digestive systems, no stress, no illness, no toxins, etc. then supplementary vitamins would never be necessary. However, we know that is not the state of things. The other extreme is the use of mega doese of vitamins based on a variety of research/concepts/ideas/hunches/sales pitches/ etc - good and bad. Obviously we usually fall in between. So appropriate supplementation of the basic building blocks for cellular metabolism is sometimes necessary (and I contend that in our current world, and among those I see, it is frequently necessary, at a low level).

There is a level of necessary nutrients required for basic cellular metabolism. Without this cellular metabolism - we die. We need nutrients to live. When we do not produce these nutrients - therefore we must take them in. In the past, we obtained our nutrients via our food. When we did not have the proper balance - we experienced deficiency diseases. No matter how perfect the homeopathic remedy - it will not cure scurvy - you need molecules of vitamin C in the body and it has to come from somewhere. No matter how perfect the homeopathic remedy - we still need nutrients (as well as water, air, etc. ) - and if they are not found in our food - supplementation is a viable alternative (not perfect - simply viable).

The argument that the bodies need for extra vitamins would 'only appear to fix the problem, what they are really doing is helping you live comfortably with it' makes no sense to me. Vitamins are simply molecules that are used in cellular reactions. If the body needs them - they are used. They do not cover or mask a problem - they are part of the bodies mechanism to repair cellular damage and carry out normal cellular functions. If they appear to help the situation - then the basic reason for the deficiency needs to be addressed - and once addressed, supplemental nutrients may not be necessary. But to deny the body of basic ingredients for healing will not help the body heal.

When you ask what are the symptoms when vitamin or machine usage is stopped - then I ask - what were the causes of the symptoms in the first place? If there is a deficiency due to poor diet - if you don't improve the diet - removing the vitamins will eventually bring back the original deficiency symptoms. If the deficiency is due to the leaching of nutrients by pharmaceuticals - and you don't stop the drugs - of course the problems will reoccur. If the problem came from toxins - if you don't remove the source/input of toxins - stop any form of detoxing and the symptoms of toxicity will reoccur.

[Shannon Nelson]

Hi Donna,
Here's an example, and I think more can be easily found:
From childhood (or birth or whatever) I had a very high need for
certain nutrients--vitamin C, Bs, and magnesium being the main starting
points--even on a "very good" diet. Since starting homeopathic
treatment (now about 16 years ago) I have seen those requirements go
from "very high" before treatment and "between remedies", down to
nothing at all when I'm "on a good remedy". I would say that's an
example that fits the above description, don't you think? Because in a
case such as that, the real problem is *not* the nutrient intake, but
the faulty metabolism.
And that is very true too! I was assuming "good" diet and absence of
other apparent causes, but you're very right those are important to
cover in the casetaking!
Best wishes,
Shannon
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[Gail]

Hi Donna,
would 'only
you
I will give an example of this to help explain.
When your body has too much copper on board there are many symptoms
because it impacts on many metabollic pathways. One symptom could be
that your gums tend to bleed. This is also a symptom of scurvy and
suprise, suprise, taking enough Vit C can fix it and enable you to
continue life apparently scurvy free and unaware that your real
problem is a copper overload.
If you go a step deeper with nutritional treatment you recognise the
copper overload because of all the other symptoms and may take Zinc
and Molybdemum and avoid sources of copper which will eventually
bring the copper levels back to normal. You could even treat this
overload homoeopathically,with a copper detox potency rather than
with vitamins, and bring copper levels back to normal.
Then your health seems to be even better and you don't need to take
as many supplements. However the real problem probably wasn't copper
overload - it is around the question of why you were susceptible to
copper overload in the first place. This is where miasmatic
treatment comes in. To me the original symptoms, before any Vitamins
or minerals are taken, could provide the picture of how this
individual's vital force is expressing the underlying miasm.

Gail.

-- In minutus@yahoogroups.com, Robert & Shannon Nelson
wrote:
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[Tanya Marquette]

all this discussion about homeopathy vs nutritional supplements
is very interesting. however, it doesnt seem to account for the
fact that foods are quite deficient in nutrients these days due to
the poor soil quality they are grown in. nor does it take into
account that the american diet is so deficient in nutrients that
people are suffering many deficiencies that should be dealt with
food. however, many people will not change their diets or change
them sufficiently--too drastic a change, and supplementation then
becomes the next best choice. it seems important to not lose
this perspective in making an analysis. dont you think?

tanya
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[Roger]

Just a reminder, this may become almost a moot topic soon if we dont act:
We must fight against the "harmonization" of supplement regulations that may
occur very soon under the World Trade Organization (WTO) Codex Alimentarius
process. Essentially all supplements except something like 18 minerals and
14 vitamins will be pulled off the shelf (as happened in Australia) unless
they undergo safety and effectiveness testing, like they do with drugs at a
cost of millions of dollars. This would make it prohibitive for smaller
companies thus forcing them out of business.
ANH (http://www.alliance-natural-health.org/) is conducting an expensive
legal challenge in Europe to modify or prevent this from happening. If they
lose then the USA will be required to join this harmonization, under WTO
rules. The WTO pre-empts our law since it is an international treaty. The
FDA is all for it.
Another one you can support is Intl Advocates for Health Freedom
http://www.nocodexgenocide.com. John is a little rabid but its whats needed
to fight big pharma. He is doing it based on his experience of saving his
own life with supplementation. He really puts it on the line. He is flying
out to Wash. DC soon on his own dime to confront legislators. He is asking
for donations to help.
Pls pass this along to your friends and other newslists.
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