personality,
Andrew wrote:
Dear Andrew,
Ofcourse those things are included, constitution means 'make up'.
I do not 'believe' there is support from the Organon, I know it for a fact.
Aphorism 5 of The Organon:
"Useful to the physician in attaining the cure are the particulars of the
most probable exciting cause of the acute diseases, and the most significant
point in the whole history of the chronic diseases, to enable him to
discover its fundamental cause, which is generally due to a chronic miasm.
In these investigations, the ascertainable physical constitution of the
patient (especially when the disease is chronic], his spiritual and
emotional character, his occupation, mode of living and habits, his social
and domestic relationships, his age, sexual function, etc., are to be taken
into consideration".
Believe me it is a misunderstanding that Hahnemannian Homeopathy has nothing
to do with prescribing on the basis of the constitution.
regards, Piet
Constitutional Remedy
Re: Constitutional Remedy
a remedy which removes the symptoms of a chronic miasm [psora, sycosis,
syphilis, tuberculosis].
Andrew
syphilis, tuberculosis].
Andrew
Re: Constitutional Remedy
a
you
ok i see now. What you called the similimum has become the de facto
constitutional. This does not seem to be the way others such as Piet would
use the term, as i gather you would be NOT including purely charcteristic
traits [colour preference etc] so i think that becomes confusing. What I
wish to enquire is from which authority did you obtain this concept? Do you
believe it can be found in the Organon ? [see my answer to Piet]. Mind you,
I have no problems going beyond Hn if in fact long experience in cases
proves a new idea.
Andrew
you
ok i see now. What you called the similimum has become the de facto
constitutional. This does not seem to be the way others such as Piet would
use the term, as i gather you would be NOT including purely charcteristic
traits [colour preference etc] so i think that becomes confusing. What I
wish to enquire is from which authority did you obtain this concept? Do you
believe it can be found in the Organon ? [see my answer to Piet]. Mind you,
I have no problems going beyond Hn if in fact long experience in cases
proves a new idea.
Andrew
Re: Constitutional Remedy
Piet said..
fact.
taken
nothing
I believe this cannot be relied upon for your argument, and this paragraph
from the Organon should be critically examined. My reasons...
1. it gives no explanation as to how we should take these points 'into
consideration'
2. it appears to contradict everything else written in the Organon about how
to consider a case.
3. elsewhere he gives a clear explanation as to how to consider a case...
eg... let's look at the following paragraph [no. 6]..
The unprejudiced observer - well aware of the futility of transcendental
speculations which can receive no confirmation from experience - be his
powers of penetration ever so great, takes note of nothing in every
individual disease, except the changes in the health of the body and of the
mind (morbid phenomena, accidents, symptoms) which can be perceived
externally by means of the senses; that is to say, he notices only the
deviations from the former healthy state of the now diseased individual,
which are felt by the patient himself, remarked by those around him and
observed by the physician. All these perceptible signs represent the disease
in its whole extent, that is, together they form the true and only
conceivable portrait of the disease.
so from here we note...
1. we consider changes in health of body and mind..not things which have
stayed the same
2. deviations from former healthy state..not things relating to healthy
state
3. we consider peceptible signs..not imperceptible states of mind
Hn then explicitly rules out including in the disease picture anything to do
with mental constitution or temperament.
Why then does he appear to contradict himself in the preceeeding paragraph
as you have quoted?
i can think of two possible answers, neither of which would support your
case...
1. He wishes us to take note of these things in order to EXCLUDE them from
the case analysis as being things unrelated to the disease energy.
2. He wishes us to note them in order to be alerted to 'likely suspects,' ie
to provide a clinical cheat sheet.
eg...babies tend to show a greater leaning to puls and calc than oher
age groups, manual workers tend to show a greater leaning than others to
symph, hyper, cal, those in cold climates preferentially for acon, camph,
nux etc etc. While we must be unprejudiced observers, we have to open the
materia medica somewhere first, so maybe Hn was saying to start looking in
the places where there are the best odds.
If you can find anywhere else in the Organon which supports your argument,
tell me.
Andrew
fact.
taken
nothing
I believe this cannot be relied upon for your argument, and this paragraph
from the Organon should be critically examined. My reasons...
1. it gives no explanation as to how we should take these points 'into
consideration'
2. it appears to contradict everything else written in the Organon about how
to consider a case.
3. elsewhere he gives a clear explanation as to how to consider a case...
eg... let's look at the following paragraph [no. 6]..
The unprejudiced observer - well aware of the futility of transcendental
speculations which can receive no confirmation from experience - be his
powers of penetration ever so great, takes note of nothing in every
individual disease, except the changes in the health of the body and of the
mind (morbid phenomena, accidents, symptoms) which can be perceived
externally by means of the senses; that is to say, he notices only the
deviations from the former healthy state of the now diseased individual,
which are felt by the patient himself, remarked by those around him and
observed by the physician. All these perceptible signs represent the disease
in its whole extent, that is, together they form the true and only
conceivable portrait of the disease.
so from here we note...
1. we consider changes in health of body and mind..not things which have
stayed the same
2. deviations from former healthy state..not things relating to healthy
state
3. we consider peceptible signs..not imperceptible states of mind
Hn then explicitly rules out including in the disease picture anything to do
with mental constitution or temperament.
Why then does he appear to contradict himself in the preceeeding paragraph
as you have quoted?
i can think of two possible answers, neither of which would support your
case...
1. He wishes us to take note of these things in order to EXCLUDE them from
the case analysis as being things unrelated to the disease energy.
2. He wishes us to note them in order to be alerted to 'likely suspects,' ie
to provide a clinical cheat sheet.
eg...babies tend to show a greater leaning to puls and calc than oher
age groups, manual workers tend to show a greater leaning than others to
symph, hyper, cal, those in cold climates preferentially for acon, camph,
nux etc etc. While we must be unprejudiced observers, we have to open the
materia medica somewhere first, so maybe Hn was saying to start looking in
the places where there are the best odds.
If you can find anywhere else in the Organon which supports your argument,
tell me.
Andrew
Re: Constitutional Remedy
you
i would call it 'the recent simillimum,' since that's what it is. Might as
well describe a thing by what it is.
Andrew
i would call it 'the recent simillimum,' since that's what it is. Might as
well describe a thing by what it is.
Andrew
-
Soroush Ebrahimi
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Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
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Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
Re: Constitutional Remedy
Dear Andrew
To be able to read and understand the Organon needs training and good
teaching. If we could learn by just reading, then why would we want
colleges and universities etc?
Where one gets this teaching is absolutely crucial.
You also need to be able to look at the WHOLE of the concepts relating to
homeopathy mentioned in the Organon. Also in the same way that one would
not be regarded as literary expert on an author by just reading one of his
books, other works by Hn must be taken into consideration. Admittedly
Organon 6 is the last work from Hn but it is basically trying to pull
together all his thought processes and experiences.
The first few aphorisms of the Organon concern themselves with the
identification of the path to be taken to achieve the goal.
Hn then goes into detail in later aphorisms.
"The unprejudiced observer - well aware of the futility of transcendental
speculations which can receive no confirmation from experience - be his
powers of penetration ever so great" - relates to the way medicine was
practised by allopaths at his time. (What has changed??)
For example they would perceive that someone's blood was dirty so they would
remove the dirty blood from him - That is how George Washington was killed.
What evidence did they have the President's blood was dirty?
Basically Andrew, Hn is saying to his colleagues GET REAL!
Of course you MUST make note of what has changed! This is a clear and sure
way of finding the remedy you need for the pt. But you do not always have
this luxury. What do you do when a baby is born diseased? What has changed?
Nothing in the baby's life!
So one has to go back and back till something real is reached.
Or what about the relevance of miasms? They have always been with the
person, so why treat them?
No - we treat them because they deviate from the norm!
I trust that you agree that as a homeopath we have to remain unprejudiced.
One of the issues is that we have to use our judgement in a clear way. So
you have to decide why does this person behave in this way when no one else
does?
Is this a deviation from the norm? If the answer is yes, then in needs to be
included in the analysis.
[A child (or even an adult) may want to go around naked - even in public. We
were all born naked - so are they deviating?
The answer is that if it is in our ordinary society, then yes, but not if
you are viewing the Brazilian tribes, then NO!]
So if a person says they like cucumbers, that is fine and it is possibly no
a sign of disease. But if the situation arises that they will eat cucumbers
in preference to any other food they we have a deviation.
Or if someone MUST buy and eat ice cream every day and unless they are sure
there is a tub of the stuff in the freezer they become stressed and anxious
then the desire for ice cream must be noted.
Conversely if someone says they hate ice cream, then that must be noted too
because 'most' people like ice cream.
Therefore what we must take into consideration is the point that 'is this
aspect of the patient a sign of disease/deviation?'
Regards
Soroush
To be able to read and understand the Organon needs training and good
teaching. If we could learn by just reading, then why would we want
colleges and universities etc?
Where one gets this teaching is absolutely crucial.
You also need to be able to look at the WHOLE of the concepts relating to
homeopathy mentioned in the Organon. Also in the same way that one would
not be regarded as literary expert on an author by just reading one of his
books, other works by Hn must be taken into consideration. Admittedly
Organon 6 is the last work from Hn but it is basically trying to pull
together all his thought processes and experiences.
The first few aphorisms of the Organon concern themselves with the
identification of the path to be taken to achieve the goal.
Hn then goes into detail in later aphorisms.
"The unprejudiced observer - well aware of the futility of transcendental
speculations which can receive no confirmation from experience - be his
powers of penetration ever so great" - relates to the way medicine was
practised by allopaths at his time. (What has changed??)
For example they would perceive that someone's blood was dirty so they would
remove the dirty blood from him - That is how George Washington was killed.
What evidence did they have the President's blood was dirty?
Basically Andrew, Hn is saying to his colleagues GET REAL!
Of course you MUST make note of what has changed! This is a clear and sure
way of finding the remedy you need for the pt. But you do not always have
this luxury. What do you do when a baby is born diseased? What has changed?
Nothing in the baby's life!
So one has to go back and back till something real is reached.
Or what about the relevance of miasms? They have always been with the
person, so why treat them?
No - we treat them because they deviate from the norm!
I trust that you agree that as a homeopath we have to remain unprejudiced.
One of the issues is that we have to use our judgement in a clear way. So
you have to decide why does this person behave in this way when no one else
does?
Is this a deviation from the norm? If the answer is yes, then in needs to be
included in the analysis.
[A child (or even an adult) may want to go around naked - even in public. We
were all born naked - so are they deviating?
The answer is that if it is in our ordinary society, then yes, but not if
you are viewing the Brazilian tribes, then NO!]
So if a person says they like cucumbers, that is fine and it is possibly no
a sign of disease. But if the situation arises that they will eat cucumbers
in preference to any other food they we have a deviation.
Or if someone MUST buy and eat ice cream every day and unless they are sure
there is a tub of the stuff in the freezer they become stressed and anxious
then the desire for ice cream must be noted.
Conversely if someone says they hate ice cream, then that must be noted too
because 'most' people like ice cream.
Therefore what we must take into consideration is the point that 'is this
aspect of the patient a sign of disease/deviation?'
Regards
Soroush
Re: Constitutional Remedy
the idea that sulphur 'types' wear discordant colours , thuja prefers green
etc.
Andrew
etc.
Andrew
Re: Constitutional Remedy
no
cucumbers
Well, if something is a sign of disease it certainly needs to be taken into
consideration. [whether any given instance is or is not a symptom doe snot
concern us here, suffice to say it is sometimes a matter of judgment as you
rightly argue]. You seem to be implying also the negative of this, that if
it is not a sign of disease then it should not be taken into consideration.
This is in accordance with the Organon. Those who hold the idea of
constitutional treatment believe in something else..eg a love of
thunderstorms leans us towards phosphorus for treating a patient's chronic
migraines. This view is most clearly expressed in Bailey's 'Homeoapthic
Psychology," also Ananda Zaren, Coulter.
At the moment i am not discussing the merits of this view. i am pointing out
that it is unsuported by anything in the Organon, yet many believe that such
'constitutional homeopathy' is true Hn homeopathy. How id this strange
inversion come about?
Andrew
cucumbers
Well, if something is a sign of disease it certainly needs to be taken into
consideration. [whether any given instance is or is not a symptom doe snot
concern us here, suffice to say it is sometimes a matter of judgment as you
rightly argue]. You seem to be implying also the negative of this, that if
it is not a sign of disease then it should not be taken into consideration.
This is in accordance with the Organon. Those who hold the idea of
constitutional treatment believe in something else..eg a love of
thunderstorms leans us towards phosphorus for treating a patient's chronic
migraines. This view is most clearly expressed in Bailey's 'Homeoapthic
Psychology," also Ananda Zaren, Coulter.
At the moment i am not discussing the merits of this view. i am pointing out
that it is unsuported by anything in the Organon, yet many believe that such
'constitutional homeopathy' is true Hn homeopathy. How id this strange
inversion come about?
Andrew