Re. the placebo effect - Allopaths are fully aware that a massive amount of
sick people get better directly as a result of homoeopathic treatment. The
argument I always put back to them, is that, by stating that when a person
becomes well (having taken homoeopathic medication) the improvement is due
to the placebo effect, this is an admission that the remedy action actually
worked. My next point to them is to ask - Then why not use the same
remedies. If such a staggering amount of patients are getting better on
these 'placebos', then here is a perfect system of medicine - wellness with
no side effects. Again I ask "Why then do you not use it?".
John
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
Placebo effect
-
Barry Carter
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:00 pm
Re: Placebo effect
Dear John,
At 03:03 AM 11/21/2003, you wrote:
You can see some images of the "placebo effect" at work growing a cat's
tail at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/tutstail.htm
More images of the "placebo effect" on plant growth can be found at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ORMUS/tw/walnuts.htm
Some images of the "placebo effect" on a gentleman's beard can be found at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/m-copper.htm
--
With kindest regards,
Barry Carter
2319 Balm
Baker City, Oregon 97814
Phone: 541-523-3357
Web Pages:
Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm
ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/toc.htm
"What you think upon grows. Whatever you allow to occupy your mind you
magnify in your life. Whether the subject of your thought be good or bad,
the law works and the condition grows. Any subject that you keep out of
your mind tends to diminish in your life, because what you do not use
atrophies. The more you think of grievances, the more such trials you will
continue to receive; the more you think of the good fortune you have had,
the more good fortune will come to you."
--Emmet Fox
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
At 03:03 AM 11/21/2003, you wrote:
You can see some images of the "placebo effect" at work growing a cat's
tail at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/tutstail.htm
More images of the "placebo effect" on plant growth can be found at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ORMUS/tw/walnuts.htm
Some images of the "placebo effect" on a gentleman's beard can be found at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/m-copper.htm
--
With kindest regards,
Barry Carter
2319 Balm
Baker City, Oregon 97814
Phone: 541-523-3357
Web Pages:
Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm
ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/toc.htm
"What you think upon grows. Whatever you allow to occupy your mind you
magnify in your life. Whether the subject of your thought be good or bad,
the law works and the condition grows. Any subject that you keep out of
your mind tends to diminish in your life, because what you do not use
atrophies. The more you think of grievances, the more such trials you will
continue to receive; the more you think of the good fortune you have had,
the more good fortune will come to you."
--Emmet Fox
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
Homoeopathy
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 11:00 pm
Re: Placebo effect
Dear Barry,
With all due respect, what is the connection between the links below and
homeopathy (placebo affect). I did not see any homeopathic rxs. prescribed
on those cases.
Best Regards
STAY HEALTHY THE NATURAL WAY
HOMEOPATHY & QXCI NEW QUANTUM ENERGETIC MEDICINE
Mr. Fernando Quaresma BRANCO LCPH MARH FBIH
Tel: +212 022 36 42 52
GSM +212 (0)61 65 18 73
Tel/Fax/Voice: International +44 (0)709 222 5225
With all due respect, what is the connection between the links below and
homeopathy (placebo affect). I did not see any homeopathic rxs. prescribed
on those cases.
Best Regards
STAY HEALTHY THE NATURAL WAY
HOMEOPATHY & QXCI NEW QUANTUM ENERGETIC MEDICINE
Mr. Fernando Quaresma BRANCO LCPH MARH FBIH
Tel: +212 022 36 42 52
GSM +212 (0)61 65 18 73
Tel/Fax/Voice: International +44 (0)709 222 5225
Re: Placebo effect
Hi John.
Good to see you again. Placebo means 'feeling better' that does not mean a malady has been cured. Placebos worked better thann prosiac and other anti-depressant drugs. Curing si something different from feeling well. Let's say you have a patient with pneumonia and you gave homeo-placebo and you measured the effects and found improved conditins then this is one thing. However, if the patient says I feel well that is other thing. Then you can have points and graphs and data to plot and genertate paperTo cut long story short, homeopathys is a placebo. It is superior if it is PlaceboPlus.
Nanga Pir
john twigg wrote:
Re. the placebo effect - Allopaths are fully aware that a massive amount of
sick people get better directly as a result of homoeopathic treatment. The
argument I always put back to them, is that, by stating that when a person
becomes well (having taken homoeopathic medication) the improvement is due
to the placebo effect, this is an admission that the remedy action actually
worked. My next point to them is to ask - Then why not use the same
remedies. If such a staggering amount of patients are getting better on
these 'placebos', then here is a perfect system of medicine - wellness with
no side effects. Again I ask "Why then do you not use it?".
John
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
ATTENTION PLEASE:
The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good to see you again. Placebo means 'feeling better' that does not mean a malady has been cured. Placebos worked better thann prosiac and other anti-depressant drugs. Curing si something different from feeling well. Let's say you have a patient with pneumonia and you gave homeo-placebo and you measured the effects and found improved conditins then this is one thing. However, if the patient says I feel well that is other thing. Then you can have points and graphs and data to plot and genertate paperTo cut long story short, homeopathys is a placebo. It is superior if it is PlaceboPlus.
Nanga Pir
john twigg wrote:
Re. the placebo effect - Allopaths are fully aware that a massive amount of
sick people get better directly as a result of homoeopathic treatment. The
argument I always put back to them, is that, by stating that when a person
becomes well (having taken homoeopathic medication) the improvement is due
to the placebo effect, this is an admission that the remedy action actually
worked. My next point to them is to ask - Then why not use the same
remedies. If such a staggering amount of patients are getting better on
these 'placebos', then here is a perfect system of medicine - wellness with
no side effects. Again I ask "Why then do you not use it?".
John
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
ATTENTION PLEASE:
The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.
****
If you do not wish to receive individual emails, send a message with the subject of 'Digest' to ashahrdar@yahoo.com to receive a single daily digest.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
Barry Carter
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:00 pm
Re: Placebo effect
Dear Fernando,
At 11:25 AM 11/21/2003, you wrote:
I described the possible connection in a previous post titled Homeopathic
Resonances which is included below:
Homeopathy Theory
One thing, which is standing in the way of a wider acceptance of
homeopathy, is the lack of a good model of how homeopathy works in terms of
modern physics and chemistry. I am working with a group of researchers who
are exploring some newly rediscovered substances that might help us to
formulate such a model.
We call these substances ORMUS. ORMUS is the precious metal elements in a
form that is not identifiable as these elements using conventional
spectroscopy. You can read more about ORMUS on my web site at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/toc.htm
My model to explain the physics and chemistry behind homeopathy arises from
some strange properties of water.
Water is H2O, hydrogen two parts, oxygen one part, but there's a third
thing which makes it water and nobody knows what that is. - D.H. Lawrence
Triple distilled water weighs about a pound more per gallon than ultrapure
water made by burning hydrogen in oxygen. We suspect that the component
missing from ultrapure water is the ORMUS elements.
Since these elements are spectroscopically invisible, they would not show
up in any assay of the triple distilled water. But how might ORMUS hide out
in water?
Plato believed that water could be represented by an icosahedron. Dr.
Martin Chaplin, a professor of chemistry in London agrees with Plato and
postulates that water molecules are clustered together in icosahedral
structures.
These structures would provide a quiet inner space where the ORMUS elements
could hide.
According to Chaplin, the structure of water can change with varying
conditions.
Mr. Masaru Emoto, a researcher in Japan has demonstrated that crystal ice
formation can be influenced by:
Sound
Written words
Thought.
You can read more about how these factors can influence the structure of
ice crystal formation at:
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/aug ... water.html
How might ORMUS facilitate these changes in water structure?
Some modern physicists are postulating that all matter is a resonance
pattern of energy. If you put sand on a vibrating plate the nodes of
vibration will show up on the plate. This phenomena is described here:
http://www.cymaticsource.com/cymaticsvideos.html
I will use an analogy to describe how the ORMUS elements might control the
structure of water in response to homeopathic dilutions.
Imagine a fleet of radio-controlled taxis in a city. If the dispatcher
called all of them and told the drivers to change lanes they could all
change lanes at once. In a similar way the ORMUS element hanging inside the
icosahedral water molecule structure would act as a resonator which could
change the structure of the water molecule like the sound resonating the
vibrating plate changes the pattern of the sand on it.
These ORMUS "radios" apparently respond to thought as well as other
vibrations like:
Homeopathy
Light and color
Sound
Electrical and magnetic fields
Shape
The ORMUS "radios" would transfer the information from the homeopathic
remedy through something called quantum coherent resonance. Quantum
coherence is the condition where a bunch of atoms are coherently coupled
and behave like a single atom.
Another property of quantum coherent resonators is superconductivity.
Superconductors levitate on magnetic fields. You can see a short video of
ORMUS gold levitating away from a moving magnet at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/res ... vitate.avi
How might we prove that ORMUS in water is the "radio control" mechanism for
structuring the water?
We must prove that there is ORMUS in water and that this ORMUS has other
quantum coherent properties like superconductivity.
All natural water is weakly diamagnetic. Diamagnetic materials are repelled
by magnetic fields. Since people and other animals are over 65% water they
should levitate in very strong magnetic fields. You can find a short video
of a frog levitating in a strong magnetic field at:
http://www.hfml.sci.kun.nl/levitation-movies.html
In brief, my model is that the ORMUS elements in water are the recorders
and the re-broadcasters of homeopathic and other resonances.
You can read more about the ORMUS model of homeopathy at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/homeopat.htm
Additional info can be found on the web pages below:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/livwater.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/dna.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/evolution.htm
http://members.aol.com/yggdras/paraphysics/BCarter.htm
--
With kindest regards,
Barry Carter
2319 Balm
Baker City, Oregon 97814
Phone: 541-523-3357
Web Pages:
Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm
ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/toc.htm
"What you think upon grows. Whatever you allow to occupy your mind you
magnify in your life. Whether the subject of your thought be good or bad,
the law works and the condition grows. Any subject that you keep out of
your mind tends to diminish in your life, because what you do not use
atrophies. The more you think of grievances, the more such trials you will
continue to receive; the more you think of the good fortune you have had,
the more good fortune will come to you."
--Emmet Fox
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
At 11:25 AM 11/21/2003, you wrote:
I described the possible connection in a previous post titled Homeopathic
Resonances which is included below:
Homeopathy Theory
One thing, which is standing in the way of a wider acceptance of
homeopathy, is the lack of a good model of how homeopathy works in terms of
modern physics and chemistry. I am working with a group of researchers who
are exploring some newly rediscovered substances that might help us to
formulate such a model.
We call these substances ORMUS. ORMUS is the precious metal elements in a
form that is not identifiable as these elements using conventional
spectroscopy. You can read more about ORMUS on my web site at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/toc.htm
My model to explain the physics and chemistry behind homeopathy arises from
some strange properties of water.
Water is H2O, hydrogen two parts, oxygen one part, but there's a third
thing which makes it water and nobody knows what that is. - D.H. Lawrence
Triple distilled water weighs about a pound more per gallon than ultrapure
water made by burning hydrogen in oxygen. We suspect that the component
missing from ultrapure water is the ORMUS elements.
Since these elements are spectroscopically invisible, they would not show
up in any assay of the triple distilled water. But how might ORMUS hide out
in water?
Plato believed that water could be represented by an icosahedron. Dr.
Martin Chaplin, a professor of chemistry in London agrees with Plato and
postulates that water molecules are clustered together in icosahedral
structures.
These structures would provide a quiet inner space where the ORMUS elements
could hide.
According to Chaplin, the structure of water can change with varying
conditions.
Mr. Masaru Emoto, a researcher in Japan has demonstrated that crystal ice
formation can be influenced by:
Sound
Written words
Thought.
You can read more about how these factors can influence the structure of
ice crystal formation at:
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/aug ... water.html
How might ORMUS facilitate these changes in water structure?
Some modern physicists are postulating that all matter is a resonance
pattern of energy. If you put sand on a vibrating plate the nodes of
vibration will show up on the plate. This phenomena is described here:
http://www.cymaticsource.com/cymaticsvideos.html
I will use an analogy to describe how the ORMUS elements might control the
structure of water in response to homeopathic dilutions.
Imagine a fleet of radio-controlled taxis in a city. If the dispatcher
called all of them and told the drivers to change lanes they could all
change lanes at once. In a similar way the ORMUS element hanging inside the
icosahedral water molecule structure would act as a resonator which could
change the structure of the water molecule like the sound resonating the
vibrating plate changes the pattern of the sand on it.
These ORMUS "radios" apparently respond to thought as well as other
vibrations like:
Homeopathy
Light and color
Sound
Electrical and magnetic fields
Shape
The ORMUS "radios" would transfer the information from the homeopathic
remedy through something called quantum coherent resonance. Quantum
coherence is the condition where a bunch of atoms are coherently coupled
and behave like a single atom.
Another property of quantum coherent resonators is superconductivity.
Superconductors levitate on magnetic fields. You can see a short video of
ORMUS gold levitating away from a moving magnet at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/res ... vitate.avi
How might we prove that ORMUS in water is the "radio control" mechanism for
structuring the water?
We must prove that there is ORMUS in water and that this ORMUS has other
quantum coherent properties like superconductivity.
All natural water is weakly diamagnetic. Diamagnetic materials are repelled
by magnetic fields. Since people and other animals are over 65% water they
should levitate in very strong magnetic fields. You can find a short video
of a frog levitating in a strong magnetic field at:
http://www.hfml.sci.kun.nl/levitation-movies.html
In brief, my model is that the ORMUS elements in water are the recorders
and the re-broadcasters of homeopathic and other resonances.
You can read more about the ORMUS model of homeopathy at:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/homeopat.htm
Additional info can be found on the web pages below:
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/livwater.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/dna.htm
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/evolution.htm
http://members.aol.com/yggdras/paraphysics/BCarter.htm
--
With kindest regards,
Barry Carter
2319 Balm
Baker City, Oregon 97814
Phone: 541-523-3357
Web Pages:
Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm
ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/toc.htm
"What you think upon grows. Whatever you allow to occupy your mind you
magnify in your life. Whether the subject of your thought be good or bad,
the law works and the condition grows. Any subject that you keep out of
your mind tends to diminish in your life, because what you do not use
atrophies. The more you think of grievances, the more such trials you will
continue to receive; the more you think of the good fortune you have had,
the more good fortune will come to you."
--Emmet Fox
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Placebo effect
Hi Nanga Pir,
What definition are you using for "placebo"? A dictionary says: "an
inactive substance or preparation given to satisfy the patient's symbolic
need for drug therapy.... Also, a procedure with no intrinsic therapeutic
value, performed for such purpose." The issue of cure versus palliation is
something different, and perhaps is what you're referring to? (But why you
say homeopathy is not curative? It certainly appears to be often, so
perhaps I am not understanding you.)
Shannon
on 11/22/03 10:40 PM, Nanga Pir at nangapir@yahoo.com wrote:
What definition are you using for "placebo"? A dictionary says: "an
inactive substance or preparation given to satisfy the patient's symbolic
need for drug therapy.... Also, a procedure with no intrinsic therapeutic
value, performed for such purpose." The issue of cure versus palliation is
something different, and perhaps is what you're referring to? (But why you
say homeopathy is not curative? It certainly appears to be often, so
perhaps I am not understanding you.)
Shannon
on 11/22/03 10:40 PM, Nanga Pir at nangapir@yahoo.com wrote:
Re: Placebo effect
The name placebo word came from church settings. Please read the book, The Placebo Effect" and it talks about feeling good. I hope that helps.
Nanga Pir
Bob&Shannon wrote:
Hi Nanga Pir,
What definition are you using for "placebo"? A dictionary says: "an
inactive substance or preparation given to satisfy the patient's symbolic
need for drug therapy.... Also, a procedure with no intrinsic therapeutic
value, performed for such purpose." The issue of cure versus palliation is
something different, and perhaps is what you're referring to? (But why you
say homeopathy is not curative? It certainly appears to be often, so
perhaps I am not understanding you.)
Shannon
on 11/22/03 10:40 PM, Nanga Pir at nangapir@yahoo.com wrote:
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ATTENTION PLEASE:
The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.
****
If you do not wish to receive individual emails, send a message with the subject of 'Digest' to ashahrdar@yahoo.com to receive a single daily digest.
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nanga Pir
Bob&Shannon wrote:
Hi Nanga Pir,
What definition are you using for "placebo"? A dictionary says: "an
inactive substance or preparation given to satisfy the patient's symbolic
need for drug therapy.... Also, a procedure with no intrinsic therapeutic
value, performed for such purpose." The issue of cure versus palliation is
something different, and perhaps is what you're referring to? (But why you
say homeopathy is not curative? It certainly appears to be often, so
perhaps I am not understanding you.)
Shannon
on 11/22/03 10:40 PM, Nanga Pir at nangapir@yahoo.com wrote:
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ATTENTION PLEASE:
The Minutus Group is established purely for the promotion of Homoeopathy and educational benefit of its members. It makes no representations regarding the individual suitability of the information contained in any document read or advice or recommendation offered which appears on this website and/or email postings for any purpose. The entire risk arising out of their use remains with the recipient. In no event shall the minutus site or its individual members be liable for any direct, consequential, incidental, special, punitive or other damages whatsoever and howsoever caused.
****
If you do not wish to receive individual emails, send a message with the subject of 'Digest' to ashahrdar@yahoo.com to receive a single daily digest.
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
Julian Winston
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:00 pm
Re: Placebo effect
At 8:48 PM -0800 11/23/03, Nanga Pir wrote:
When one is talking about word definitions, one usually goes to a dictionary.
"Placebo" does NOT mean feeling better." And its use in Church
setting is archaic.
The word derives from the Latin future indicative tense of "placere"
--to please. "Placebo" is, therefore, "I shall please."
The dictionary defines is as an "inert mediciment that is given to
satisfy the patient" or as "something intended to soothe or gratify."
In this last usage, we get the derivation of "Placebo" as "the
vespers [i.e., evening prayers] for the dead in the Roman Catholic
Church."
"Placebo" in the context of medicine cannot mean "feeling better"
since it is not an action but, rather, a thing-- a mediciment or
other soothing thing.
The book might talk about feeling good, but THAT is not the accepted
definition, and the author should know that.
JW
When one is talking about word definitions, one usually goes to a dictionary.
"Placebo" does NOT mean feeling better." And its use in Church
setting is archaic.
The word derives from the Latin future indicative tense of "placere"
--to please. "Placebo" is, therefore, "I shall please."
The dictionary defines is as an "inert mediciment that is given to
satisfy the patient" or as "something intended to soothe or gratify."
In this last usage, we get the derivation of "Placebo" as "the
vespers [i.e., evening prayers] for the dead in the Roman Catholic
Church."
"Placebo" in the context of medicine cannot mean "feeling better"
since it is not an action but, rather, a thing-- a mediciment or
other soothing thing.
The book might talk about feeling good, but THAT is not the accepted
definition, and the author should know that.
JW
-
Howard A Asinoff
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 10:00 pm
Re: Placebo effect
The successful use of homeopathy on household pets (dogs, cats, birds)
has removed the word
placebo from debates with skeptics who argue that 'homeopathy is a
placebo'. I have yet to use
lac pellets (placebo) on a pt as their hypochrondria, etc has lead me to
an indicated remedy.
While in school I saw placebo used successfully on pts who could not
comprehend the concept
of 'taking a single dose and waiting' but the placebo was given only
AFTER the single dose of indicated remedy thus giving the pt a
task-to-perform until the followup visit.
Grace & Peace 2 All,
Howard
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:48:08 -0800 (PST) Nanga Pir
writes:
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
has removed the word
placebo from debates with skeptics who argue that 'homeopathy is a
placebo'. I have yet to use
lac pellets (placebo) on a pt as their hypochrondria, etc has lead me to
an indicated remedy.
While in school I saw placebo used successfully on pts who could not
comprehend the concept
of 'taking a single dose and waiting' but the placebo was given only
AFTER the single dose of indicated remedy thus giving the pt a
task-to-perform until the followup visit.
Grace & Peace 2 All,
Howard
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:48:08 -0800 (PST) Nanga Pir
writes:
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
-
Shannon Nelson
- Posts: 8848
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Placebo effect
Hi Nanga Pir,
I won't be able to read the book, as I have a "tragically" long list
awaiting already! But would be interested in hearing the definition, if you
have the time to explain. But so far it *seems* that this definition is not
the one that is commonly used, and that can cause communication problems,
when we think we are talking about the same thing, but are not!
Best wishes,
Shannon
on 11/23/03 10:48 PM, Nanga Pir at nangapir@yahoo.com wrote:
I won't be able to read the book, as I have a "tragically" long list
awaiting already! But would be interested in hearing the definition, if you
have the time to explain. But so far it *seems* that this definition is not
the one that is commonly used, and that can cause communication problems,
when we think we are talking about the same thing, but are not!
Best wishes,
Shannon
on 11/23/03 10:48 PM, Nanga Pir at nangapir@yahoo.com wrote: