Off Topic Collegiate Standard of Communication

[isali]

In the absence of an assertive management, we are left amongst ourselves to construct a mechanism that allows for all who participate to remain at the minutus table.

The first issue seems to be identification of material which is not 'classical homeopathy'. It seems that placing 'off topic' in the subject line resolves for most that issue.

If a participant engages in behavior which is not of a collegiate standard, and is unwillingly to adher to a collegiate standard of behavior, the easiest remedy is the delete key to their presence. This on the theory that they require some catalyst which promotes their deviant behavior. Don't be their catalyst, renegotiate their offering to the appropriate file, because in balance not enough is gained by opening the mail.

The goal of the site is to generate and sustain dialogue, debate, and argument of ideas. The objective is to do this on the subject of promoting homeopathy and benefiting the education of the participants of the site. The means of fulfilling this is proper use of the subject line, and appropriate use of the delete key.

From those of us who share a bountiful of thanks with a festive meal this week, may we reflect upon those who have naught and be more appreciative of all which we have.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Shannon Nelson]

Good points, Isali.
But I've come to think it's more difficult than that, because certain types
of communication are so "toxic", so "contagious", that even normally
easygoing types can be goaded into "fighting back", and then you can get a
sort of "mob mentality", where even those of us who *know* we should just
use that delete key, because as you say (paraphrased!), the gain does not
offset the pain... Well, things can get surprisingly ugly.

Witness events on the Lyghtforce list last year. The list owner was finally
forced to step in with "the big guns" and announce that he would summarily
suspend anyone whose language he didn't like. I don't know if he actually
had to *do* that to anyone, but the threat (which he was by then very
willing to make good on) seems to have been effective.

Strange and sad that that sort of "call Mommy" approach should be needed in
such a setting, but maybe better that than permit one or two folks to
intimidate and drive away other contributing members.
on 11/27/02 11:20 AM, isali at isali@bellsouth.net wrote:

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

............. and since then the Lyghtforce list has been almost
dead.............

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

[Dave Hartley]

Patronizing & snide:
"Also to say Dave, that there must be many hundreds of remedies that you do
not prescribe correctly as they are so poorly represented in the MM's - how
could you go about learning about them and from them. My knowledge of
Asteria is from cases.
But of course if you are uncertain about what remedy to use because the MM's
don't give a full picture then I guess there is always ART to fall back on."
-Joy

Minimizing & insulting:
ART which I have now renamed GAS = 'grabbing at straws' is my last take on
this subject.
-Joy

Personal jibe totally unrelated to "Collegieate whatever" :
You should change your remedy, the current one obviously isn't working.
-Joy

exchanges to be consistently patronizing when in she is in any way
challenged.. such as asking for corroborating sources.

It is quite hypocritical of anyone who chooses to ignore the fact that Joy
is perfectly capable of, and provably not above personal insult, dodging
questions, and putting herself on the Platina pedestal while manipulating
folks with her supposed woundedness.

I suppose I should now post a bunch of Platina symptoms & play guess the
remedy. But that too, is a petty tactic, and certainly fails "Collegiate
whatever"
Dave Hartley
www.Mr-Notebook.com
www.localcomputermart.com/dave
Seattle, WA 425.820.7443
Asheville, NC 828.285.0240

[Dave Hartley]

Hi Dr. J,

The lyghtforce list seems to be promoted less well than it once was.
Having been a member of that list since rather early in its history (6 yrs)
I have seen it wax & wane, but there always used to be a steady stream of
newcomers (often asking the same old questions, of course) which gave people
an opportunity to reply & get conversation thread started. There are very
few anymore.

For most of Lyghtforce list's history up 'til a year or two ago, listees
were treated to absolute top-caliber teaching by Will Taylor, David Little,
and a few others, who've all gotten busy with other projects.

As I recall, the "big guns" affair had to do with the ST gang having mounted
an effort to turn the lyghtforce list into an ST list instead of a
homeopathy list.

Getting listees to respect the topical focus in an unmoderated forum can be
TOUGH work.

I am glad that for the moment, that work seems to be behind us on this list.
I am less glad that I had such little cooperation, and bore the brunt of the
Mr. Meany label in getting this work done, but I'll live.
I'll also, I'm sure, manage to survive Dr. Isali's enmity, now that it has
taken a less direct approach than previous attempts (as is an unfortunately
common tactic) of pretending that topical dialogue which one party dislikes
represents "personal attack" on the part of the other.

Akin to Joy's "blocks to listening" are the very well known "disinformation
techniques"

Eight Traits of The Disinformationalist
1. Avoidance
2. Selectivity
3. Coincidental
4. Teamwork <<<<<< hmm....
5. Anti-conspiratorial
6. Artificial Emotions <<<<< yup, yup..
7. Inconsistent
8.Newly Discovered: Time Constant

-and
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

1.Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil
2. Become incredulous and indignant <<<<<<<<< anyone we know?
3. Create rumor mongers
4. Use a straw man
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling, ridicule
6. Hit and Run
7. Question motives <<<<< bigtime
8. Invoke authority <<<<< from on high
9. Play Dumb
10. Associate opponent charges with old news
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions
12. Enigmas have no solution
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic
14. Demand complete solutions
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses
17. Change the subject
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad
19. Ignore facts, demand impossible proofs
20. False evidence
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor
22. Manufacture a new truth
23. Create bigger distractions
24. Silence critics
25. Vanish
Dave Hartley
www.Mr-Notebook.com
www.localcomputermart.com/dave
Seattle, WA 425.820.7443
Asheville, NC 828.285.0240

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

As this is addressed directly to me, I think I have to
answer/comment.......... alas.......

One of the reasons, not the single but a major reason, the top guns of
the Lyghtforce list left, or stopped writing, was because of the
bickering going around. So now it is quiet, the silence of the
battlefield after the battle.............
A few parallel lists then appeared as refuges for people wanting to
continue discussing homeopathy with all its variations as people do
practice today; most of the Lyghtforce people are still on those lists,
as well as on Minutus.
It is disturbing to see on Minutus the same pattern that has happened on
Lyghtforce: an attempt by one single person to forcefully impose his
view, his concept of homeopathy to all..... what is there to discuss if
there are no different opinions? How do we learn from experience if
experience that is not fitting in a rigid frame is disallowed?
The Heilkunst people have developed their practice along a certain path,
questions were asked, answers were given, that is all what was
happening. That you, Dave, disagree with them is fine and commendable
from the classical point of view; but to prove them wrong (if possible)
has to be done through the basics of homeopathy, Organon and Chronic
Diseases discussion, not by asking them, or anyone else to go away. You
resorted to that not because you do not know Hahnemann's writing but
because you did not care to read the Heilkunst writings and to
investigate before attacking (and there are plenty of other texts than
Decker's interlinear...).
In the discussions that have lead to this point in time, you have made
very valid remarks and many interesting comments that could have been
the origin of fruitful discussions and learning. Unfortunately you have
chosen to make them in a way that is not acceptable to most of us.
You claim not to need any lesson in communication skills; ask yourself
WHY it is that you are always the "victim" of such "villains" on the
lists you participate....... not everybody could be wrong all the time.
In a previous email exchange, we agreed that neither of us gives a rat's
ass about whatever the other thinks about him, and as far as I am
concerned, it is still true. So for me, you can continue to pose as the
White Knight of Classical Homeopathy, I do not care, it has about the
same relevance than my kid's Spiderman disguise; less cute though.
I personally am very interested in the way others practice and
especially when it is different from what I do and when they have
results. As long as the list owner will not forbid formally any precise
subject of discussion by a direct intervention, I consider that anything
even remotely connected to homeopathy or the way homeopaths practice,
the way they integrate other techniques in their vision of healing, has
its place on a discussion list.
This closes the subject, I think............

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

[Shannon Nelson]

Yep, Joy did get a bit "non-collegiate" here.
Which nicely illustrates my point that, "certain types
of communication are so "toxic", so "contagious", that even normally
easygoing types can be goaded into "fighting back"..."
on 11/27/02 7:11 PM, Dave Hartley at dave@localcomputermart.com wrote:

[Shannon Nelson]

Oh Dave,
Once again, I think you are seeing what's *convenient* for you, rather than
what's accurate. I first meant to answer this privately (to spare the
list), but I can't let you put this self-serving mis-information up without
challenge.

on 11/27/02 8:52 PM, Dave Hartley at dave@localcomputermart.com wrote:
??? How was the list "promoted"? How are the other lists "promoted"? It's
still on the net, still available to folks searching for homeopathy-talk.
The newcomers were *not* the main focus of the threads!!!! If you think
most of us stayed on so long just to hear you tell newcomers seeking medical
advice to "see a professional homeopath", then you are sadly mistaken.

There was a delightful amount of sharing of results and different
approaches, and "what's worked for me" -- always weaving in and out of your
attacks. More frequent and more vociferous as you've gained training and
confidence, I guess. Ah, the well-reasoned arguments: From "This isn't
classical, so you're a Mongrel Homeopath", to "Shut up, Dave!" Such a high
levl of discourse...

This came and went like smog, locusts and bad weather, all thru my years on
Lyghtforce. As time has gone on, your language has improved some (I don't
think you've called anyone even a "moron" lately, let alone the more
colorful epithets you used to occasionally produce), but your creativity,
intolerance and bad manners will not be squashed; you manage to be just as
irritating, abusive, disruptive and insulting, even without the overt
slander and name-calling.

Sigh, you have a certain talent with words; I wish you would use that talent
differently.

which gave people

There was also a fairly steady supply of folks *telling* the list that they
had recently joined, but were unsubbing because they were revolted by the
behavior they were seeing on the list. (Which folks, do you suppose???)

Minutus has also had at least a couple in the past month or two.
Once again -- whom might they have been reacting to, hmm?
Both have come and gone various times during those years, as you well know,
and the list went on.
I was on that list for most of the time you were, and I would *not* say that
they were the primary draw of the list -- tho they were each a big one, I
would have to admit.

Julian Winston has been another big draw. He's very quiet these days. He
quit at one point a couple of years ago, very specifically because of you,
Dave. Do you remember that? Julian is not into ST, and is I would say
passably "classical", but he got too sickened by your mudslinging.

But what a funny coincidence, now that I think about it, that LF went to
sleep within, what was it, a month or so of your last (and greatest)
firestorm... (I have to admit there were also a couple of other awesomely
toxic presences involved in that one, tho. Is that the "contagious"
aspect?)
This is your paranoia speaking, and was *not* the experience of (most of?)
the rest of us on the list. What you describe as "mounted an effort to turn
the lyghtforce list into an ST list instead of a homeopathy list" is simply
that there were a couple of list members who used and/or studied in ST, and
several others (myself included) who were interested in understanding what
the flap was about, seeing how ST is similar to and different from
classical, etc. You inserted yourself into *every* thread on the topic, in
just the way that we've seen here (and sometimes far worse than we've seen
here so far).

There was a *brief* period where one of the ST students answered your pushy
efforts to censor her (and the rest of us), with some (probably
inappropriate) pushy over-insistence of her own -- she mirrored your tactic,
poor thing. It was gently (and privatley) remarked on to her, and she
*immediately* stopped (tho she did continue to take part in discussions).
You, however, went on and on and on and on... And are still doing so!

Are there others on this list who remember those exchanges, with Ati and ???
Am I alone in thinking that Dave's description is paranoid, self-serving and
generally inaccurate?
And it's NOT YOUR JOB!
What you are doing is pretty much the equivalent of a Boy Scout who's
decided that every little ol' lady is going to cross the #&$(@ street,
whether she wants to or not, even if he has to tackle her and *drag* the
b---- across. Get *off* it!
??? Meaning you figure you've beat us all into submission? Or meaning that
because there are no ST-ers here, the world is once again safe for honest
folk?

"Little cooperation" does not say the *half* of it, buddy. You are tilting
at windmills, and even your horse must be getting sick of it.
???? You mean topical dialogue such as "hoist by your own petard"?
Sheesh...
which one party dislikes
There, I remembered to snip.
Shannon

[Dave Hartley]

Hi Dr. J,

Interesting to see how the topic is closed in your mind, and was so both
prior to and after my post.
Sad, but not unpredictable. Still, for the peanut gallery ..

If you are still subscribed to lyghtforce, as I am, do you propose that it
is reasonable to attempt to blame me personally for the lack of newcomers?
Do you propose that I am also to blame for Will Taylor obtaining a choice
teaching position which leaves no time for lyghtforce? I suppose you can
somehow extend your logic to cover my being responsible for David Little's
lack of input? (well, actually I have a tiny share of responsibility here-
after all, I did spearhead getting his material online on his first website
which I created & hosted way back when, and which now has grown into one of
the internet's foremost .. probably THE foremost collections of original
contemporary Hahnemannian scholarship, also bringing some financial support
to him via his online classes while he has been working on finishing his
book which is slated for publishing soon. I hope you have enjoyed his online
classes... I hadn't seen you lurking there 'til recently.)

There are centripetal and centrifugal forces to be balanced if homeopathy is
to survive.
Too much centrifugal - it flies apart ... too much centripetal- stagnation.

Unfortunately, there are way too many modern day wanna be Galileo's (with a
few wanna be Einsteins, though I've not noticed any supermans or spidermans
yet) who seek to remake homeopathy in their own image prior to gaining
principled grounding in it, and therefore obviously prior to proving the
principles thoroughly to themselves in practice.
All of these geniuses are positive that homeopathy will stagnate on the spot
if their "new approach" doesn't gain ground.

How can such a person "improve" on what s/he knows NOT?

The Minutus list was instituted, as you must finally be Perfectly Well Aware
of.. as "classical (Hahnemannian) homeopathy" discussion.

The fact that I took on the task of centripetal counterbalance to rampant
off-topic posting might be properly characterized as one person attempting
to force his view --- except for the blatantly contradictory fact that the
list's topic had been clearly stated since Day One. (a fact which Galileo
was blissfully ignorant of, apparently)

Obviously you have no obligation to answer, but if you choose to, perhaps
you could say what it is that you find of such an odious nature in a
person's asking for listees to be willing to provide corroborating
references or to state that one or several specified or unspecified cases of
their own are material from which they draw "remedy pictures?"

I am fairly certain that you would be keenly aware that this is mundanely
standard in academic & professional collegium of any description, anytime,
anywhere.

It would certainly be much easier to simply delete off-topic postings, and
posts which tend to give screwy viewpoints of homeopathy - but I feel that's
kind of a coward's way out, and would rather institute dialogue, state my
position, and be willing to debate. The fact that your so called "villains"
tend to turn debate toward executing and claiming "personal attack" is
simply the mark of a weak debator & poor loser imho.

fyi, I have read one of Verspoor's books cover to cover, long ago, and am
still willing to pay anyone double the cover price for Decker's Intralinear.
The heilkunstlers' debates are circular, like the religious zealot who
justifies his "holy book" as the one true word of the Almighty ..
unfortunately for my being able to carry the debate "inside" their holy
book, several years ago my check for the book (which had been announced for
sale on lyghtforce) was returned uncashed... obviously I am unwashed &
unworthy to read the holy work. The hypocrisy of remaking homeopathy via
custom-tailored retranslation of Organon which is available only to acolytes
knows no bounds.

I would be much more than willing to turn this superman suit over to someone
else who had the guts to speak up when s/he percieves inconsistency between
what is posted and h/ir understanding of Hahnemannian homeopathy.. it is
certainly a combination of lightning rod & nut magnet (according to Dan
York, owner of lyghtforce.com) ..seems to make a bright primary color target
for anyone who thinks s/he's got a chunk of kryptonite in h/ir pocket.

ciao,

Dave Hartley
www.Mr-Notebook.com
www.localcomputermart.com/dave
Seattle, WA 425.820.7443
Asheville, NC 828.285.0240

[Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD]

Just for the fun of it, because I feel vicious right now: who said there
are no ST-ers on this list????

Dr. J. Rozencwajg, MD, PhD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind".

??? Meaning you figure you've beat us all into submission? Or meaning
that
because there are no ST-ers here, the world is once again safe for
honest
folk?