..........some other explanation:
The "antidote" effect can be complete, partial or a modification of action.
Atb,
Leilanae
Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
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Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
Many of the so-called "antidotes" are also often listed as "following well". There are lots of contradictions in what is in the literature about that.
My impression, and of course I have no real proof of what I am going to write, is that the "antidoting" is the revealing of another layer that was either removed or suppressed by the previous remedy (i.e the antidoted remedy was not the correct one, palliative at best) and that the "following well" is a synergistic one that completes the action of the previous one or the correct remedy that is acting after some symptoms that were masking it are removed by the previous remedy.
That is when you give one remedy after another.
How that works in a combo, IMO, is purely symptomatic, based on clinical experience, the same way a herbal combo works, but with some dilution and dynamisation.
Makes sense?
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
My impression, and of course I have no real proof of what I am going to write, is that the "antidoting" is the revealing of another layer that was either removed or suppressed by the previous remedy (i.e the antidoted remedy was not the correct one, palliative at best) and that the "following well" is a synergistic one that completes the action of the previous one or the correct remedy that is acting after some symptoms that were masking it are removed by the previous remedy.
That is when you give one remedy after another.
How that works in a combo, IMO, is purely symptomatic, based on clinical experience, the same way a herbal combo works, but with some dilution and dynamisation.
Makes sense?
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
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Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
It would be nice if a real classical homeopath (whatever that is) would answer this question...I am not considered as one, I am rather an iconoclastic homeopath.
What I know and think (and this is my own approach, I do not claim to represent anyone else): the history and tradition of homeopathy is to use one single remedy at a time.
I agree this should be our aim; it makes evaluation of treatment easier, and it makes sense inasmuch as we do not use labels, "this for that" approaches, but deep knowledge and understanding of the process of disease in a patient, for a patient, by a patient.
This implies also the need to clarify the road before getting to that single remedy, removing not only the traditional obstacles to cure but the many daily causes and maintaining causes of disease, like simply poor, incorrect nutrition (see "Elementary Nutrition for Homeopaths). I do know some "classical" homeopaths who fully reject that approach...why is beyond my limited understanding...
As for combos, the claim is that they are not homeopathy. Yes and No (get used to those answers...).
No because they often focus on a single or just a few symptoms, like the one you described, and we do not know what happens: is there a cure? only if by chance the remedy is included in the mix; is there suppression or only palliation? we will know that if the problem recurs. They are not deep acting, in general, and the choice, for the commercial OTC ones, is often made based on some sort of "statistical" results as reported in the materia medica and in case reports; if you read that a million sneezing patients had their sneezes stopped with Allium Cepa, chances are that your sneeze will also be better...but is the cause of the sneeze addressed? And in case it is not Allium Cepa, let us throw in a few others under the guise of synergy and to cover our butts...
Yes (and this is where the feathers and tar are prepared), when the practitioner creates a combo for a specific patient for a good reason with a specific purpose, for a limited time, knowing what to expect and why it is used. There are rules in "Complexist Homeopathy", forgotten by most, and I am not sure it is even properly taught any more (I did not check recently, not interested).
So you see, it is not a simple question you have raised, and it has torn the homeopathic community apart for a long time. Welcome to the club!
....
;-)8-):-D....
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
What I know and think (and this is my own approach, I do not claim to represent anyone else): the history and tradition of homeopathy is to use one single remedy at a time.
I agree this should be our aim; it makes evaluation of treatment easier, and it makes sense inasmuch as we do not use labels, "this for that" approaches, but deep knowledge and understanding of the process of disease in a patient, for a patient, by a patient.
This implies also the need to clarify the road before getting to that single remedy, removing not only the traditional obstacles to cure but the many daily causes and maintaining causes of disease, like simply poor, incorrect nutrition (see "Elementary Nutrition for Homeopaths). I do know some "classical" homeopaths who fully reject that approach...why is beyond my limited understanding...
As for combos, the claim is that they are not homeopathy. Yes and No (get used to those answers...).
No because they often focus on a single or just a few symptoms, like the one you described, and we do not know what happens: is there a cure? only if by chance the remedy is included in the mix; is there suppression or only palliation? we will know that if the problem recurs. They are not deep acting, in general, and the choice, for the commercial OTC ones, is often made based on some sort of "statistical" results as reported in the materia medica and in case reports; if you read that a million sneezing patients had their sneezes stopped with Allium Cepa, chances are that your sneeze will also be better...but is the cause of the sneeze addressed? And in case it is not Allium Cepa, let us throw in a few others under the guise of synergy and to cover our butts...
Yes (and this is where the feathers and tar are prepared), when the practitioner creates a combo for a specific patient for a good reason with a specific purpose, for a limited time, knowing what to expect and why it is used. There are rules in "Complexist Homeopathy", forgotten by most, and I am not sure it is even properly taught any more (I did not check recently, not interested).
So you see, it is not a simple question you have raised, and it has torn the homeopathic community apart for a long time. Welcome to the club!
....
;-)8-):-D....Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
A really great introductory homeopathic book - a free read..........
Homeopathy: Beyond Flat Earth Medicine
Homeopathy: Beyond Flat Earth Medicine
CLICK HERE TO READ THE FIRST EDITION ON-LINE! This copy of Dr Dooley's book is presented here for on-line reading at no charge. It is not in...
View on www.beyondflatearth...
Preview by Yahoo
What is homeopathy
How it differs
When to use it
What to expect
How to get results
And what is needed for success in treatment
Atb,
Leilanae
Homeopathy: Beyond Flat Earth Medicine
Homeopathy: Beyond Flat Earth Medicine
CLICK HERE TO READ THE FIRST EDITION ON-LINE! This copy of Dr Dooley's book is presented here for on-line reading at no charge. It is not in...
View on www.beyondflatearth...
Preview by Yahoo
What is homeopathy
How it differs
When to use it
What to expect
How to get results
And what is needed for success in treatment
Atb,
Leilanae
-
Maria Bohle
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:00 pm
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
Hello Deb and friends,
Taking this purely from the 'classical' viewpoint, ie Hahnemanian Organon and old Classical writers, The main problem with polypharmacy remedies is they have not been proven. If we decide to prove them (the late great Julian Winston used to say), they would be quite appropriate, after all Hahnemann did prove Causticum which was some kind of mixture.
If we give a combo or more than one remedy, it limits our second choice. Which one worked, and as Dr. Joe said, what happens if your patient gets accessory symptoms - how do you continue your treatment while eliminating the offender. And what next?
We are told to use the Totality of Symptoms - that is the totality of the characteristic symptoms of the patient who is ill, (not every symptom the patient is experiencing), once you learn how to isolate the symptom totality of what you want to treat, you may decide there is a secondary totality (X is patient's totality, by Y is a residual from an accident atop that totality) then you may also treat for Y separately, or alternate your remedies between x and y. But you clearly have to understand what you are doing.
Same with someone with allergies, go for the totality, but if needed to help remove a burden of plant pollens, house dust, etc you may opt to give a remedy for the allergies to try to keep the purity, as much as possible, of your pathological remedy.
That said, we do NOT want to use the above if our remedy is given is to hedge our bets with careless or poor prescribing.
I just gave a clinical patient Stellaria, it looked like a rhus tox case, and little is known about Stellaria, He got 'just' the Stellaria which cleared up the rheumatic problems, urinary problems, and several other things that Rhus tox (in this patient anyway) would not have reached. If I had given more than one remedy (for the urinary and allergic,etc) I would have never know where to go and what remedy, especially a 'small remedy' worked for his whole issue - now we (self and my clinical students) are waiting to see how much good this remedy did so we can annotate our materia medicas.
Warmly, Maria
Taking this purely from the 'classical' viewpoint, ie Hahnemanian Organon and old Classical writers, The main problem with polypharmacy remedies is they have not been proven. If we decide to prove them (the late great Julian Winston used to say), they would be quite appropriate, after all Hahnemann did prove Causticum which was some kind of mixture.
If we give a combo or more than one remedy, it limits our second choice. Which one worked, and as Dr. Joe said, what happens if your patient gets accessory symptoms - how do you continue your treatment while eliminating the offender. And what next?
We are told to use the Totality of Symptoms - that is the totality of the characteristic symptoms of the patient who is ill, (not every symptom the patient is experiencing), once you learn how to isolate the symptom totality of what you want to treat, you may decide there is a secondary totality (X is patient's totality, by Y is a residual from an accident atop that totality) then you may also treat for Y separately, or alternate your remedies between x and y. But you clearly have to understand what you are doing.
Same with someone with allergies, go for the totality, but if needed to help remove a burden of plant pollens, house dust, etc you may opt to give a remedy for the allergies to try to keep the purity, as much as possible, of your pathological remedy.
That said, we do NOT want to use the above if our remedy is given is to hedge our bets with careless or poor prescribing.
I just gave a clinical patient Stellaria, it looked like a rhus tox case, and little is known about Stellaria, He got 'just' the Stellaria which cleared up the rheumatic problems, urinary problems, and several other things that Rhus tox (in this patient anyway) would not have reached. If I had given more than one remedy (for the urinary and allergic,etc) I would have never know where to go and what remedy, especially a 'small remedy' worked for his whole issue - now we (self and my clinical students) are waiting to see how much good this remedy did so we can annotate our materia medicas.
Warmly, Maria
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Lynn Cremona
- Posts: 633
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:00 pm
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
Refer to The Lesser Writings of Hahnemann
collected and translated by R. E Dudgeon, MD
Combo Remedies are Mentioned numerous times
beginning with the Preface.
Virus-free. www.avast.com
collected and translated by R. E Dudgeon, MD
Combo Remedies are Mentioned numerous times
beginning with the Preface.
Virus-free. www.avast.com
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Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
You used the correct word: "assume"
In reality, we do not know....we assume palliation, suppression as possibilities, and confirm it when the symptoms come back, either same or slightly different.
Based only on clinical results and changes, non-indicated remedy do not do anything and remain "inert"; but is it real? there could be subtle changes, that become cumulative (or not) in time with repeated dosages...that is another assumption...or is it? we know from nutrition that you need extremely small dose of micronutrients to keep healthy and it takes a long time of chronic depletion to see pathology as well as a long time of chronic overdosage to see problems, if ever...I assume it could be the same with potentised substances.
Grafting has been well described, yet in almost 30 years of practice, I have never seen it...or maybe those who got it never came back to tell me (another assumption). One thing for sure, is that to graft a remedy you need to be a real obstinate person and keep repeating and repeating and repeating for a long time. Making sure that you stop a remedy when either there is a cure/strong change/strong amelioration, or when it does not do anything after proper administration is the best way to avoid grafting.
Remember what Einstein wrote: to repeat the same action constantly and hope for a different result is a sure sign of insanity.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
In reality, we do not know....we assume palliation, suppression as possibilities, and confirm it when the symptoms come back, either same or slightly different.
Based only on clinical results and changes, non-indicated remedy do not do anything and remain "inert"; but is it real? there could be subtle changes, that become cumulative (or not) in time with repeated dosages...that is another assumption...or is it? we know from nutrition that you need extremely small dose of micronutrients to keep healthy and it takes a long time of chronic depletion to see pathology as well as a long time of chronic overdosage to see problems, if ever...I assume it could be the same with potentised substances.
Grafting has been well described, yet in almost 30 years of practice, I have never seen it...or maybe those who got it never came back to tell me (another assumption). One thing for sure, is that to graft a remedy you need to be a real obstinate person and keep repeating and repeating and repeating for a long time. Making sure that you stop a remedy when either there is a cure/strong change/strong amelioration, or when it does not do anything after proper administration is the best way to avoid grafting.
Remember what Einstein wrote: to repeat the same action constantly and hope for a different result is a sure sign of insanity.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
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Maria Bohle
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:00 pm
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
The way I understand it and try to explain it to my students.
Think of the disease state as a dance. The chorus line are the symptoms. Now you take a spotlight and put it on the lead singer or dancer. This is the lead and affects the entire group.
The dancing goes on and there is a unity of purpose.
But If someone backstage turns on a light or If a dancers family wants to take a picture of them in the back row and uses a small spot light, The focus of the entire show is divided and disrupted. The dance may continue but the impact is not focused.
This is how I view poly pharmacy. Lots of things are happening and as Hahnemann said only God could unravel the effects.
We may chose to treat two totalities at once but at different dosing times and we need to understand what we are doing.
Think of the disease state as a dance. The chorus line are the symptoms. Now you take a spotlight and put it on the lead singer or dancer. This is the lead and affects the entire group.
The dancing goes on and there is a unity of purpose.
But If someone backstage turns on a light or If a dancers family wants to take a picture of them in the back row and uses a small spot light, The focus of the entire show is divided and disrupted. The dance may continue but the impact is not focused.
This is how I view poly pharmacy. Lots of things are happening and as Hahnemann said only God could unravel the effects.
We may chose to treat two totalities at once but at different dosing times and we need to understand what we are doing.
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Maria Bohle
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:00 pm
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
If you overshoot a symptom with homeopathic remedies you could potentially accelerate the symptom timeline in a patient and push the disease state faster then it wold show on its own.
I have seen it happen.
And
I saw a bad suppression of allergy sx cause a patient to lose a kidney. Sadly the combo palliated and the remedy the patient needed was not in the combo. The right remedy included the kidney pathology as well as the allergies.
Maria
I have seen it happen.
And
I saw a bad suppression of allergy sx cause a patient to lose a kidney. Sadly the combo palliated and the remedy the patient needed was not in the combo. The right remedy included the kidney pathology as well as the allergies.
Maria
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Maria Bohle
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:00 pm
Re: Combo Remedies: antidoting reason?
Dr Rozencwajg you are too good of a doctor and homeopath to inadvertently graft symptoms in a patient.
Sadly, I have grafted sx upon myself. I snored for years when accidentally spilling a couple drops of medicating potency on myself, Someone I know, a student, created hemorrhoids with an inadvertent proving, and had a patient come to me with the failure of one kidney after taking an OTC allergy combo for two years that suppressed his allergic sinus symptoms.
Are these grafted on provings or did the remedies accelerate their disease timeline?
Oh, I don't snore too often now, that spill was in 1998.
Maria
Sadly, I have grafted sx upon myself. I snored for years when accidentally spilling a couple drops of medicating potency on myself, Someone I know, a student, created hemorrhoids with an inadvertent proving, and had a patient come to me with the failure of one kidney after taking an OTC allergy combo for two years that suppressed his allergic sinus symptoms.
Are these grafted on provings or did the remedies accelerate their disease timeline?
Oh, I don't snore too often now, that spill was in 1998.
Maria