Dear Aham
In Hahnemannian homeopathy we try not to philosophise!
Because of your self-admitted lack of knowledge about homeopathy, I had asked you to read the Organon - but it seems that you have not read much of it.
The vital force when affected by external forces can become derranged. It then tries to get back on the correct path if it can.
When VF becomes derranged, it produces symptoms.
After an acute attack, there are three possible outcomes:
1- The organism dies.
2- The organism fully recovers.
3- Without homeopathic intervention, the organism partially recovers and chronic disease sets in.
It is the job of the homeopath to remain unprejudiced and to observe the patients and the presenting symptoms and listen with care what the patient says (often totally meaningless to present day medics - For example what would the symptom "As if someone is driving a nail into my head, pointing to a specific location." mean to a GP? Nothing! But it is like gold-dust to a homeopath!).
As to how remedies bring about cure, please read aphorisms 27 to 46. That should clarify much for you.
Please come back after this careful reading.
Regards
Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 30 November 2015 10:17
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] Eye iris
Dear Soroush,
yes, I agree in principle.
The vital force is live.
At the same time Hahnemann mentioned, that this vital force is not yet recognized enough or as I say, is a bit sleepy, because of all these illnesses.
Here I say, that the vital force must have a direction of working, as every force has.
Therefore, is the vital force an attraction force or a force by attraction/repulsion, or even a combination of both?
Live should be attractive and not repulsive.
Yes, I see too a trinity (tritation).
I see any materialized emotional pain as an unconscious part of the vital force.
Therefore my question, how is it possible to use such pains in a homeopathic way, in order to wake up more the vital force inside any human being.
Water:
I see carbon as a matrix, where the spirit can enter.
I see water as the carrier of the spirit providing consciousness.
Therefore indeed is the tritration important.
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 09:49, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
Vital force - was Eye iris
-
Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
Re: Vital force - was Eye iris
Dear Soroush,
I do not see any difference in what I say to what you state.
Yes, the vital force tries to get back on the path.........when human beings allow it and cooperate.
How do you know, I did not read enough?
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 12:55, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
I do not see any difference in what I say to what you state.
Yes, the vital force tries to get back on the path.........when human beings allow it and cooperate.
How do you know, I did not read enough?
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 12:55, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
-
Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
Re: Vital force - was Eye iris
Dear Aham
I assumed that you had not read enough because you are asking questions that are answered in the Organon. As shown by the reference I sent you earlier today.
In the diseased state, sometime the vital force is not strong enough. The outcome is that the either organism dies, or goes on develop a chronic disease.
Of course for healing to take place, both the patient and the homeopath must cooperate.
Rgds
Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 30 November 2015 13:09
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] RE: Vital force - was Eye iris
Dear Soroush,
I do not see any difference in what I say to what you state.
Yes, the vital force tries to get back on the path.........when human beings allow it and cooperate.
How do you know, I did not read enough?
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 12:55, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
I assumed that you had not read enough because you are asking questions that are answered in the Organon. As shown by the reference I sent you earlier today.
In the diseased state, sometime the vital force is not strong enough. The outcome is that the either organism dies, or goes on develop a chronic disease.
Of course for healing to take place, both the patient and the homeopath must cooperate.
Rgds
Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 30 November 2015 13:09
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] RE: Vital force - was Eye iris
Dear Soroush,
I do not see any difference in what I say to what you state.
Yes, the vital force tries to get back on the path.........when human beings allow it and cooperate.
How do you know, I did not read enough?
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 12:55, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
Re: Vital force - was Eye iris
Dear Soroush,
I did read it.
And I agreed with all of them.
Moreover:
Could it be a diseased state when there is speaking of the patient and the homeopath?
Would it be eased, when there is speaking of two human beings meeting each other for strengthening the vital force?
Is a patient at ease, when he is named a patient?
Are you sure, that the homeopath is totally healthy?
In my work, I experience how I too have unconscious parts, which now must become conscious by healing inside.
If you wish, you, I and others could speak over any answer of the Organon, whether you and I and others comprehend the same?
Does really every homeopath comprehend these answers in the same way???
In this case the Organon must be total objective or 100% subjective.
I simply have some doubt that every one comprehends the same.
And I guess this would be the place here for discovering it.
Where else?
Your forum is compared to some others open enough.
With all the respect I have
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 15:10, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
I did read it.
And I agreed with all of them.
Moreover:
Could it be a diseased state when there is speaking of the patient and the homeopath?
Would it be eased, when there is speaking of two human beings meeting each other for strengthening the vital force?
Is a patient at ease, when he is named a patient?
Are you sure, that the homeopath is totally healthy?
In my work, I experience how I too have unconscious parts, which now must become conscious by healing inside.
If you wish, you, I and others could speak over any answer of the Organon, whether you and I and others comprehend the same?
Does really every homeopath comprehend these answers in the same way???
In this case the Organon must be total objective or 100% subjective.
I simply have some doubt that every one comprehends the same.
And I guess this would be the place here for discovering it.
Where else?
Your forum is compared to some others open enough.
With all the respect I have
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 15:10, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
-
Soroush Ebrahimi
- Moderator
- Posts: 4510
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:00 pm
Re: Vital force - was Eye iris
Interestingly, even diseased homeopaths go on to cure!
What people understand is based on their own ability and that of their teachers and hard work, studying etc.
Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 30 November 2015 15:45
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] RE: Vital force - was Eye iris
Dear Soroush,
I did read it.
And I agreed with all of them.
Moreover:
Could it be a diseased state when there is speaking of the patient and the homeopath?
Would it be eased, when there is speaking of two human beings meeting each other for strengthening the vital force?
Is a patient at ease, when he is named a patient?
Are you sure, that the homeopath is totally healthy?
In my work, I experience how I too have unconscious parts, which now must become conscious by healing inside.
If you wish, you, I and others could speak over any answer of the Organon, whether you and I and others comprehend the same?
Does really every homeopath comprehend these answers in the same way???
In this case the Organon must be total objective or 100% subjective.
I simply have some doubt that every one comprehends the same.
And I guess this would be the place here for discovering it.
Where else?
Your forum is compared to some others open enough.
With all the respect I have
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 15:10, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
What people understand is based on their own ability and that of their teachers and hard work, studying etc.
Soroush
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com [mailto:minutus@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 30 November 2015 15:45
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Minutus] RE: Vital force - was Eye iris
Dear Soroush,
I did read it.
And I agreed with all of them.
Moreover:
Could it be a diseased state when there is speaking of the patient and the homeopath?
Would it be eased, when there is speaking of two human beings meeting each other for strengthening the vital force?
Is a patient at ease, when he is named a patient?
Are you sure, that the homeopath is totally healthy?
In my work, I experience how I too have unconscious parts, which now must become conscious by healing inside.
If you wish, you, I and others could speak over any answer of the Organon, whether you and I and others comprehend the same?
Does really every homeopath comprehend these answers in the same way???
In this case the Organon must be total objective or 100% subjective.
I simply have some doubt that every one comprehends the same.
And I guess this would be the place here for discovering it.
Where else?
Your forum is compared to some others open enough.
With all the respect I have
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 15:10, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
Re: Vital force - was Eye iris
Hi Soroush,
You wrote " The vital force when affected by external forces can become derranged. It then tries to get back on the correct path if it can. "
In a healthy state, without interference of a chronic disease state, the vital force responds to a stressor, until the stressor abates. During this event and afterwards, any pathology is repaired, if that is within normal bounds of a healthy state. That is basically the scenario you describe. At each step it is governed by the indwelling spirit. It's sole task is to keep the organism in a state to allow fulfillment of the "mission". Aph 9.
BUT
In chronic disease however, the vital force is not able to get back on track. It is subject to the disturbances of the Chronic, miasmatic, inner disease state, the other song. Choose your definition. In this state, the vital force is reacting to stressors (external forces) based on a perception influenced by the inner disease state. This false perception creates a false reality where the vital force responds inappropriately to stress or against stresses that are not even there.
As an example, you see a snake, the response is fight or flight. That's to be expected. But some people react to a snake in a magazine. Inappropriate. Some people get the same adrenaline reaction in company, or when speaking in public.
The same for its encounter with other stressors. The result is that reactions become often inappropriate, sometimes the threat is magnified, sometimes the response is inadequate. The result is twofold. Reactions that are inappropriate can weaken/deplete the vital force. They can also divert the vital force from fulfilling it's role to achieve homeostasis. The nett effect is pathology and eventually even death.
In this scenario, the vital force is not able to get back on the right path.
This is because it's path is laid out for it by the governing influence. In a healthy state (your scenario) it reacts until the stress is gone, then restores order under the influence of the indwelling spirit. In disease it is under the spell of the inner disease, a delusional state. While that persists, the vital force is locked in.
The action of the homeopathically chosen and prepared simillimum is to temporarily usurp the inner disease, so that it cannot influence the vital force, cannot survive and consequently dissipates. Then the vital force is under the influence of the remedy. Once the remedy effect wears off, the vital force comes again under the influence of the indwelling spirit. Order can then be restored. So it's largely out of the hands of the vital force. Health and disease are spiritual battles on a dynamic front.
Taking the scenario a little further. Lets say the remedy is not a true simillimum. It helps a bit, then another remedy is indicated. The so called layer effect. (we try our best, but...) in this case the vital force is partly freed from the initial effects of the inner disease. But some remnant remains which shows to the homeopath as the state of a "next remedy". This carries on to a state where eventually the indwelling spirit can get some degree of control back over the vital force. We proudly state we have cured the patient, but I am sure you will agree it's not the route of choice. But more often than we like it seems to be the path we follow. Many cases are helped with homeopathy, getting better to a point, enough to keep the patient and homeopath in good enough spirits. Then, if we are observant and attentive, we hit a remedy that is truly simillimum, and then it's a whole new ballgame. Then we achieve true health on all levels.
Apologies this turned out long. I am just trying to differntiate between what the vital force can and can't do, as well as describe the mechanism of action of the potentized remedy, as per Organon.
Regards,
Paul
Sent from Samsung Mobile
You wrote " The vital force when affected by external forces can become derranged. It then tries to get back on the correct path if it can. "
In a healthy state, without interference of a chronic disease state, the vital force responds to a stressor, until the stressor abates. During this event and afterwards, any pathology is repaired, if that is within normal bounds of a healthy state. That is basically the scenario you describe. At each step it is governed by the indwelling spirit. It's sole task is to keep the organism in a state to allow fulfillment of the "mission". Aph 9.
BUT
In chronic disease however, the vital force is not able to get back on track. It is subject to the disturbances of the Chronic, miasmatic, inner disease state, the other song. Choose your definition. In this state, the vital force is reacting to stressors (external forces) based on a perception influenced by the inner disease state. This false perception creates a false reality where the vital force responds inappropriately to stress or against stresses that are not even there.
As an example, you see a snake, the response is fight or flight. That's to be expected. But some people react to a snake in a magazine. Inappropriate. Some people get the same adrenaline reaction in company, or when speaking in public.
The same for its encounter with other stressors. The result is that reactions become often inappropriate, sometimes the threat is magnified, sometimes the response is inadequate. The result is twofold. Reactions that are inappropriate can weaken/deplete the vital force. They can also divert the vital force from fulfilling it's role to achieve homeostasis. The nett effect is pathology and eventually even death.
In this scenario, the vital force is not able to get back on the right path.
This is because it's path is laid out for it by the governing influence. In a healthy state (your scenario) it reacts until the stress is gone, then restores order under the influence of the indwelling spirit. In disease it is under the spell of the inner disease, a delusional state. While that persists, the vital force is locked in.
The action of the homeopathically chosen and prepared simillimum is to temporarily usurp the inner disease, so that it cannot influence the vital force, cannot survive and consequently dissipates. Then the vital force is under the influence of the remedy. Once the remedy effect wears off, the vital force comes again under the influence of the indwelling spirit. Order can then be restored. So it's largely out of the hands of the vital force. Health and disease are spiritual battles on a dynamic front.
Taking the scenario a little further. Lets say the remedy is not a true simillimum. It helps a bit, then another remedy is indicated. The so called layer effect. (we try our best, but...) in this case the vital force is partly freed from the initial effects of the inner disease. But some remnant remains which shows to the homeopath as the state of a "next remedy". This carries on to a state where eventually the indwelling spirit can get some degree of control back over the vital force. We proudly state we have cured the patient, but I am sure you will agree it's not the route of choice. But more often than we like it seems to be the path we follow. Many cases are helped with homeopathy, getting better to a point, enough to keep the patient and homeopath in good enough spirits. Then, if we are observant and attentive, we hit a remedy that is truly simillimum, and then it's a whole new ballgame. Then we achieve true health on all levels.
Apologies this turned out long. I am just trying to differntiate between what the vital force can and can't do, as well as describe the mechanism of action of the potentized remedy, as per Organon.
Regards,
Paul
Sent from Samsung Mobile
Re: Vital force - was Eye iris
Soroush,
yes.....
Moreover there should be something in common.
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 18:54, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
yes.....
Moreover there should be something in common.
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 18:54, schrieb finrod@finrod.co.uk [minutus]:
Re: Vital force - was Eye iris
Hi Paul,
yes, in chronic disease the anti-life force appears, where the live force is out of order.
There is a chronic disease present ever: I name it the gender fight, as the anti life force.
Now the gender Harmony is the live force. This should become "chronic".
In a spiritual way, the man and the woman have the same abilities for spiritual thinking, feeling and sensing.
So this way they could come in harmony.
However, when there is a thought that the man is different to the woman, gender fighting is the result.
Genetics say that the genetic difference is almost neglect able, much less than 1%.
By making this difference important, all diseases appear.
Here trying to do our best happens.
Do the right thing is something different, now belonging to the vital force.
Inside any human being both spiritual voices are present, still in some fight with each other.
It is not so easy to accept this scenario................created by existence.
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 19:46, schrieb pb000014 pb000014@mweb.co.za [minutus]:
yes, in chronic disease the anti-life force appears, where the live force is out of order.
There is a chronic disease present ever: I name it the gender fight, as the anti life force.
Now the gender Harmony is the live force. This should become "chronic".
In a spiritual way, the man and the woman have the same abilities for spiritual thinking, feeling and sensing.
So this way they could come in harmony.
However, when there is a thought that the man is different to the woman, gender fighting is the result.
Genetics say that the genetic difference is almost neglect able, much less than 1%.
By making this difference important, all diseases appear.
Here trying to do our best happens.
Do the right thing is something different, now belonging to the vital force.
Inside any human being both spiritual voices are present, still in some fight with each other.
It is not so easy to accept this scenario................created by existence.
Aham
Spirit in action
Am 30.11.2015 19:46, schrieb pb000014 pb000014@mweb.co.za [minutus]: