Conventional medical doctors are generally good to excellent when it comes diagnosis. But when it comes to treatment for any degenerative disease, they are worse than useless. Don't let the glow of excellent diagnoses be transferred to their treatment skills. If the problem is acute and/or traumatic, then they are the go-to people. If the problem is a degenerative disease, take the excellent diagnosis that you got from the conventional medical doctor and run for the exit and don't look back.
Roger Bird
Diagnosis vs. treatment
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Ginny Wilken
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:00 pm
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
And that diagnosis, of course, will only ever be a description of the symptoms, the cause of which they remain oblivious. And their treatment will always be to eliminate those symptoms, thus disarming the body against its dysfunction. Degenerative disease is always a last-ditch effort on the part of the body to set itself right, and healing depends on providing the wherewithal and guidance for it to do so.
ginny
All stunts performed without a net!
ginny
All stunts performed without a net!
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Vicki Satta
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:00 pm
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
Ginny: I am in the middle of a complicated battle to get the diagnosis I need from a very wonderful doctor in a local health clinic for poor people. He is most willing to help me… the hard part is for ME to understand what my world class homeopath (experienced in exactly the area of expertise that I am getting the allopathic diagnostic part of the picture that I need from) needs to treat me while knowing that the MD has no idea what I’m talking about! I have to understand first what my homeopath is telling me. He is out of the country and I can’t just drop into the office or make a call… so it’s time consuming and I have to absolutely understand what he’s telling me so that I can get the allopath to order the testing or whatever else I need! It takes time to coordinate this since I don’t know what I’m talking about! So far I am getting the testing and opting out for the treatment that the medical people offer… but right now I may need their treatment along with the brilliant understanding and ability of my homeopath to chart the course.
It is a very difficult position to be in. You talk about a performance without a net……. I am right there with you. I am at a critical point right now. In fact I was up most of the night attempting to present the situation to my homeopath (by e-mail, which also complicates stuff) so I can act quickly on Monday and take the next step. The homeopath who got ME got a very complicated case to handle, but we’re doing it and I have no doubt that everything will be resolved as the treatment progresses because I am blessed with the good MD who wants to help me AND the best homeopath in the world who knows exactly what he’s doing and depends on me to give him the right information he needs back from the allopath to help me.
It is DEFINITELY possible and sometimes necessary for the patient to carry the load of being in the middle of the competing medical systems. I am 100% for 100% natural medicine and none of their #$%@…… but I try to really respect the MD/the man in front of that title. Without him, then there is no testing or information for the homeopath to work from. So we need to be vey careful to respect both sides while knowing that the allopathic side only eventually ends up with no healing and sometimes death…. sad but true.
I am learning a lot right now about dealing with and respecting people who either don’t agree with me or who have no idea what I’m talking about! I call this HUMAN revolution… and I am the one who is changing my humanity as I go.
Vicki
It is a very difficult position to be in. You talk about a performance without a net……. I am right there with you. I am at a critical point right now. In fact I was up most of the night attempting to present the situation to my homeopath (by e-mail, which also complicates stuff) so I can act quickly on Monday and take the next step. The homeopath who got ME got a very complicated case to handle, but we’re doing it and I have no doubt that everything will be resolved as the treatment progresses because I am blessed with the good MD who wants to help me AND the best homeopath in the world who knows exactly what he’s doing and depends on me to give him the right information he needs back from the allopath to help me.
It is DEFINITELY possible and sometimes necessary for the patient to carry the load of being in the middle of the competing medical systems. I am 100% for 100% natural medicine and none of their #$%@…… but I try to really respect the MD/the man in front of that title. Without him, then there is no testing or information for the homeopath to work from. So we need to be vey careful to respect both sides while knowing that the allopathic side only eventually ends up with no healing and sometimes death…. sad but true.
I am learning a lot right now about dealing with and respecting people who either don’t agree with me or who have no idea what I’m talking about! I call this HUMAN revolution… and I am the one who is changing my humanity as I go.
Vicki
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Ginny Wilken
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:00 pm
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
It sounds to me as though you are handling this just rightly! Diagnosis is of limited value, but it’s nice to know what systems are working and which are screwed up, impaired, or repressed.
Even though it seems that we are speaking a whole different language, homeopathy always comes back to a plain old description of a symptom, too. The symptoms are not only signposts, but also the middle ground, the translators, between homeopathy and allopathic diagnosis. But it’s not easy, in my experience as well, to find what is important to convey to our homeopaths. I find myself rattling on about how I feel, and then thinking that it was all a waste of time and that it must all be far simpler:)
Hang in there, kid!
ginny
All stunts performed without a net!
Even though it seems that we are speaking a whole different language, homeopathy always comes back to a plain old description of a symptom, too. The symptoms are not only signposts, but also the middle ground, the translators, between homeopathy and allopathic diagnosis. But it’s not easy, in my experience as well, to find what is important to convey to our homeopaths. I find myself rattling on about how I feel, and then thinking that it was all a waste of time and that it must all be far simpler:)
Hang in there, kid!
ginny
All stunts performed without a net!
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Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
Diagnosis of limited value? certainly not!
The symptoms that we use, even with their modalities and concomitants, are a limited language that our body has to express its dis-ease.
A pulsating headache in any place, no matter what the modalities are can be psychogenic, vascular, tumoural or a local expression of a general problem like high blood pressure that was not recognised and is the problem to be now diagnosed (why and how) and treated, not the headache.
Yet if we just treat the headache, we practice "dynamised allopathy" and if the GP manages to find that tumour and have it removed, he/she practices real medicine.
You want to treat hypertension with homeopathy? treat the cause, you know that! your remedies will be different if the cause is emotional or from borderline kidney failure, so you need to know the differential diagnosis of hypertension, the tests to order to be able to differentiate, the questions to ask to have the patient reveal his problem, etc,....
This is real medicine.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
The symptoms that we use, even with their modalities and concomitants, are a limited language that our body has to express its dis-ease.
A pulsating headache in any place, no matter what the modalities are can be psychogenic, vascular, tumoural or a local expression of a general problem like high blood pressure that was not recognised and is the problem to be now diagnosed (why and how) and treated, not the headache.
Yet if we just treat the headache, we practice "dynamised allopathy" and if the GP manages to find that tumour and have it removed, he/she practices real medicine.
You want to treat hypertension with homeopathy? treat the cause, you know that! your remedies will be different if the cause is emotional or from borderline kidney failure, so you need to know the differential diagnosis of hypertension, the tests to order to be able to differentiate, the questions to ask to have the patient reveal his problem, etc,....
This is real medicine.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
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Irene de Villiers
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:00 pm
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
I agree allopaths have a desire to suppress symptoms - but I disagree about your diagnosis assumptions.
Symptoms are not a diagnosis. A diagnosis is a disease name with a known mechanism that does very specific body damage. IT may or may not cvause sympotoms. The symptoms may help towards a diagnosis, but are not part of any diagnosis.
A diagnosis is VERY relevant to get.
The problem I see too much is that vets at least, have forgotten how to read lab data and blood tests and consequently no longer are making a proper diagnosis. But a diagnosis IS needed.
Case in point:
Cat is taken to the vet becasue its abdomen is bloated. Vet determines it is full of fluid.
That is useless information as it does not say what fluid or where from. It needs a diagnosis.
It could be about ten different kinds of fluid/causes.
HOW is anyone - allopath or homeopath - supposed to help the cat without kniowing what the fluid is, and where it comes from and why it is there?
Example: Maybe the fluid is chyle. (the white milky looking fluid in the thoracic duct system, that emulsifies the fats in food, taking them from the gut up the thoracic fuct to the bloodstream at soulder level.)
If it is chyle, WHY is it there? Did te uct get broken in a hit-by-car? Is there a leak due to pressure on the duct, if so from what, tumor? or i there a lympho iside the duct blocking it? Or is there a chemical waste spill where the cat lives causing toxic breakage of chyle vessels where they are small and weaker?
(My last case was the last example, toxic waste dump nearby.)
Without that proper diagnosis and SOURCE of the leak, I woudl have had no way to know how to help the cat.
Knowing chyle is leaking also requires that the nutrients lost in the chyle be replaced.
Without knowing the diagnosis, the cat would have died overnight
(The vet in the case, knew there was abdominal fluid and diagnosed FIP as a reflex. FIP fluid is not chyle, it is blood serum. BIG difference. The vet was sloppy. FIP is common, chyle leaks are not. That is no excuse to make assumptions. And nor should we make assumptios when GOOD diagnosis will lead us to proper results.)
EACH of the different kinds of fluid in the abdomen needs proper diagnosis and understanding of cause for any homeopath to have any hope of helping.
It's not like chyle nutrients will help a case of congestive heart failure, or of encysted kidneys putting urine into the abdomen, or of liver failure issue or of blood serum leaked by viral attack of blood vessles, etc.
Diagnosis is totally esential to every case.
"FIRST DO NO WRONG" also requires - first know the diagnosis. You MUST know what needs fixing.
A cat with a sore eye - is it entropion, retinitis, hypopion, glaucoma, conjunctivitis, ....etc
These are VERY different prolems.
If you do not know what you are doing due to lack of diagnosis, then the chances are the cat will lose the eye - and that is just incompetence. A homeopath needs to use ALL the information they can assemble for a case, not wander around in the dark or with blinkers on about the reality of the issues, as a result of misplaced principles to not do anything an allopath does. Allopaths are not the enemy. Their belief in drugs is, but not the rest.
Diagnosis is critically important in homeopathy.... It is essential to know WHAT is not working and why or at least in what way it is not working.
THEN you can start to make sense of rermedy selection and AFTER that, you can narrow down by symptoms, to an individual match.
Diagnosis is MORE important in homeopathy than in allopathy.
For example in my own case, my new dr recently said I shoulf skip a procedure I had requested to diagnose the cause of the pain, as the treatment (he is thinking by allopathy) would be the same either way.
BUT _ The treatment by homeopathy would NOT be the same. SO I need the MORE detailed diagnosis of cause than allopathy needs.
Blood tests are very helpful. If you do not know how to read and interpret them propely then I suggest - LEARN!!!
And I do NOT mean just looking at whether the lab says a test is "high" or "low".
I mean understand the interactions between components and what causes which to go up or down, by how much, under what circumstances, and how it relates to what else that you need to know about among the tested items and know how to ask for tests you need if they are not already included. If the wrong tests are done, you will miss the problem, and paddle up the wrong creek.
It is irresponsible to do that, is it not?
With the internet a powerful research tool, it is also reasonable to look up all the latest research on a suject in PubMed. It helps you understand pathology at the newest ikowledge level. THat also helps you uinderstand what questions to ask about symptoms.
For exmple...cat is hack-coughing.
Options are herpes, calici, bordetella bronchieptica (BB), hairball, plane flu (aka airplane flu after air travel).
Are you going to treat a hairball the same as BB becsude you can not tell them apart? I hope not?
Lookup each in PubMed. BB will tell you it is related to whooping cough but involves the bacteria destroying the alpha lipoic acid needed in the lungs. Hence the lungs are alkali-burned.
No remedy will supply the missing ALA, it needs a supplement. More checking at PubMed wil show cats are super sensitive to ALA and can handle a max dose of 20 mg/day even in illness.
SInce BB kills 100% of cats under 6 months and 50% over six months, it would be wise to ensure you know the diagnosis AND the research.
The life saving information takes a few minutes to get on the internet....from ALLOPATHIC research.
It is there to help you the homeopath, not just to help allopaths.
Even the drug related research in BB is worh knowing. It shows only Azithromycin can get to the BB bacteria, not other antibiotics. A case that comes to you already off the rails, (it can kill overnight suddenly, after three months of coughing - people also get it so this is NOT cat only info) MAY need a single dose to knock down the danger of overgrowth of BB overnight. Remedies work to heal the body - but the bacterial overload may kill first. This is one place an antibiotic dose may be a life saver. A judgement call, but you need to know how to judge and what antibiotic. The vets do NOT keep up with research. A wrong one will only make the cat/person/sheep/etc worse. The research is there - free - and searchable like google.
Allopaths have a LOT to offer. DO not throw the baby out with the bathwater here:-)
Be discriminating in what information you use - and from where.
Do what is best for the client... whatever that takes.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
Symptoms are not a diagnosis. A diagnosis is a disease name with a known mechanism that does very specific body damage. IT may or may not cvause sympotoms. The symptoms may help towards a diagnosis, but are not part of any diagnosis.
A diagnosis is VERY relevant to get.
The problem I see too much is that vets at least, have forgotten how to read lab data and blood tests and consequently no longer are making a proper diagnosis. But a diagnosis IS needed.
Case in point:
Cat is taken to the vet becasue its abdomen is bloated. Vet determines it is full of fluid.
That is useless information as it does not say what fluid or where from. It needs a diagnosis.
It could be about ten different kinds of fluid/causes.
HOW is anyone - allopath or homeopath - supposed to help the cat without kniowing what the fluid is, and where it comes from and why it is there?
Example: Maybe the fluid is chyle. (the white milky looking fluid in the thoracic duct system, that emulsifies the fats in food, taking them from the gut up the thoracic fuct to the bloodstream at soulder level.)
If it is chyle, WHY is it there? Did te uct get broken in a hit-by-car? Is there a leak due to pressure on the duct, if so from what, tumor? or i there a lympho iside the duct blocking it? Or is there a chemical waste spill where the cat lives causing toxic breakage of chyle vessels where they are small and weaker?
(My last case was the last example, toxic waste dump nearby.)
Without that proper diagnosis and SOURCE of the leak, I woudl have had no way to know how to help the cat.
Knowing chyle is leaking also requires that the nutrients lost in the chyle be replaced.
Without knowing the diagnosis, the cat would have died overnight
(The vet in the case, knew there was abdominal fluid and diagnosed FIP as a reflex. FIP fluid is not chyle, it is blood serum. BIG difference. The vet was sloppy. FIP is common, chyle leaks are not. That is no excuse to make assumptions. And nor should we make assumptios when GOOD diagnosis will lead us to proper results.)
EACH of the different kinds of fluid in the abdomen needs proper diagnosis and understanding of cause for any homeopath to have any hope of helping.
It's not like chyle nutrients will help a case of congestive heart failure, or of encysted kidneys putting urine into the abdomen, or of liver failure issue or of blood serum leaked by viral attack of blood vessles, etc.
Diagnosis is totally esential to every case.
"FIRST DO NO WRONG" also requires - first know the diagnosis. You MUST know what needs fixing.
A cat with a sore eye - is it entropion, retinitis, hypopion, glaucoma, conjunctivitis, ....etc
These are VERY different prolems.
If you do not know what you are doing due to lack of diagnosis, then the chances are the cat will lose the eye - and that is just incompetence. A homeopath needs to use ALL the information they can assemble for a case, not wander around in the dark or with blinkers on about the reality of the issues, as a result of misplaced principles to not do anything an allopath does. Allopaths are not the enemy. Their belief in drugs is, but not the rest.
Diagnosis is critically important in homeopathy.... It is essential to know WHAT is not working and why or at least in what way it is not working.
THEN you can start to make sense of rermedy selection and AFTER that, you can narrow down by symptoms, to an individual match.
Diagnosis is MORE important in homeopathy than in allopathy.
For example in my own case, my new dr recently said I shoulf skip a procedure I had requested to diagnose the cause of the pain, as the treatment (he is thinking by allopathy) would be the same either way.
BUT _ The treatment by homeopathy would NOT be the same. SO I need the MORE detailed diagnosis of cause than allopathy needs.
Blood tests are very helpful. If you do not know how to read and interpret them propely then I suggest - LEARN!!!
And I do NOT mean just looking at whether the lab says a test is "high" or "low".
I mean understand the interactions between components and what causes which to go up or down, by how much, under what circumstances, and how it relates to what else that you need to know about among the tested items and know how to ask for tests you need if they are not already included. If the wrong tests are done, you will miss the problem, and paddle up the wrong creek.
It is irresponsible to do that, is it not?
With the internet a powerful research tool, it is also reasonable to look up all the latest research on a suject in PubMed. It helps you understand pathology at the newest ikowledge level. THat also helps you uinderstand what questions to ask about symptoms.
For exmple...cat is hack-coughing.
Options are herpes, calici, bordetella bronchieptica (BB), hairball, plane flu (aka airplane flu after air travel).
Are you going to treat a hairball the same as BB becsude you can not tell them apart? I hope not?
Lookup each in PubMed. BB will tell you it is related to whooping cough but involves the bacteria destroying the alpha lipoic acid needed in the lungs. Hence the lungs are alkali-burned.
No remedy will supply the missing ALA, it needs a supplement. More checking at PubMed wil show cats are super sensitive to ALA and can handle a max dose of 20 mg/day even in illness.
SInce BB kills 100% of cats under 6 months and 50% over six months, it would be wise to ensure you know the diagnosis AND the research.
The life saving information takes a few minutes to get on the internet....from ALLOPATHIC research.
It is there to help you the homeopath, not just to help allopaths.
Even the drug related research in BB is worh knowing. It shows only Azithromycin can get to the BB bacteria, not other antibiotics. A case that comes to you already off the rails, (it can kill overnight suddenly, after three months of coughing - people also get it so this is NOT cat only info) MAY need a single dose to knock down the danger of overgrowth of BB overnight. Remedies work to heal the body - but the bacterial overload may kill first. This is one place an antibiotic dose may be a life saver. A judgement call, but you need to know how to judge and what antibiotic. The vets do NOT keep up with research. A wrong one will only make the cat/person/sheep/etc worse. The research is there - free - and searchable like google.
Allopaths have a LOT to offer. DO not throw the baby out with the bathwater here:-)
Be discriminating in what information you use - and from where.
Do what is best for the client... whatever that takes.
Namaste,
Irene
--
Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom.
P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220.
www.Furryboots.info
(Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy)
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."
-
Roger Barr
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:00 pm
- Been thanked: 2 times
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
Excellent diagnosis? Not so much.
I read a study not long ago that estimated that conventional doctors get diagnosis correct about 50% of the time. When the diagnosis IS correct it can certainly be helpful. But take any given diagnosis with a grain of salt.
Paul Herscu, ND wrote a paper about how homeopaths can, with a correctly prescribed homeopathic remedy, aid in making a correct diagnosis, because we know the common sphere of action of the remedy.
So it goes both ways.
Roger
I read a study not long ago that estimated that conventional doctors get diagnosis correct about 50% of the time. When the diagnosis IS correct it can certainly be helpful. But take any given diagnosis with a grain of salt.
Paul Herscu, ND wrote a paper about how homeopaths can, with a correctly prescribed homeopathic remedy, aid in making a correct diagnosis, because we know the common sphere of action of the remedy.
So it goes both ways.
Roger
-
Dr. Joe Rozencwajg, NMD
- Posts: 2279
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:00 pm
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
We are talking about different things here.
Your example is that of a statistical lack of diagnostic skills by the conventional medical community. It is unfortunately true and is linked to the way they are trained, now.
In my medical school training, we were compelled to have a full history, including the familial one, a competent physical examination, then offer a differential diagnosis....same as homeopathy with differential diagnosis becoming possible remedies.
Only then did we use what we then called complementary tests like selected blood tests and X Rays or other investigations to pinpoint the exact diagnosis. This is sorely missing in homeopathy.
Unless there was a need for immediate treatment, we delayed prescription until all tests were completed, and sometimes even more delay until more tests were needed.
Nowadays, it is upside down: vaguely listen to a complaint, do tests that often are not focussed and if they come back to normal, patient is dismissed or sent to someone else, if something is abnormal, a treatment is given to bring the results back to normal without all too often considering the patient behind the tests.
In other words, the "beep-beep, bling-bling, printed report" has replaced the human approach.
Only natural therapists have kept that but unfortunately too many are reluctant to have a look further than their own methodology....differential diagnosis and physical examination are shunned...why?
I disagree with Herscu; you should not make a diagnosis based upon the results of an empirical treatment. This is using the 100% correct instrument called a retrospectoscope, useful for analysis and criticism, but detrimental to the patient.
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
Your example is that of a statistical lack of diagnostic skills by the conventional medical community. It is unfortunately true and is linked to the way they are trained, now.
In my medical school training, we were compelled to have a full history, including the familial one, a competent physical examination, then offer a differential diagnosis....same as homeopathy with differential diagnosis becoming possible remedies.
Only then did we use what we then called complementary tests like selected blood tests and X Rays or other investigations to pinpoint the exact diagnosis. This is sorely missing in homeopathy.
Unless there was a need for immediate treatment, we delayed prescription until all tests were completed, and sometimes even more delay until more tests were needed.
Nowadays, it is upside down: vaguely listen to a complaint, do tests that often are not focussed and if they come back to normal, patient is dismissed or sent to someone else, if something is abnormal, a treatment is given to bring the results back to normal without all too often considering the patient behind the tests.
In other words, the "beep-beep, bling-bling, printed report" has replaced the human approach.
Only natural therapists have kept that but unfortunately too many are reluctant to have a look further than their own methodology....differential diagnosis and physical examination are shunned...why?
I disagree with Herscu; you should not make a diagnosis based upon the results of an empirical treatment. This is using the 100% correct instrument called a retrospectoscope, useful for analysis and criticism, but detrimental to the patient.
Joe.
Dr. J. Rozencwajg, NMD.
"The greatest enemy of any science is a closed mind"
www.naturamedica.co.nz
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
That's me bending over backward trying to see the other person's viewpoint and appreciating the other person's viewpoint. Shame on me. (:->)
Roger Bird
________________________________
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com on behalf of rrandor@canhealyourself.com [minutus]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2015 1:17 PM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Minutus] Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
Excellent diagnosis? Not so much.
I read a study not long ago that estimated that conventional doctors get diagnosis correct about 50% of the time. When the diagnosis IS correct it can certainly be helpful. But take any given diagnosis with a grain of salt.
Paul Herscu, ND wrote a paper about how homeopaths can, with a correctly prescribed homeopathic remedy, aid in making a correct diagnosis, because we know the common sphere of action of the remedy.
So it goes both ways.
Roger
Roger Bird
________________________________
From: minutus@yahoogroups.com on behalf of rrandor@canhealyourself.com [minutus]
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2015 1:17 PM
To: minutus@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Minutus] Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
Excellent diagnosis? Not so much.
I read a study not long ago that estimated that conventional doctors get diagnosis correct about 50% of the time. When the diagnosis IS correct it can certainly be helpful. But take any given diagnosis with a grain of salt.
Paul Herscu, ND wrote a paper about how homeopaths can, with a correctly prescribed homeopathic remedy, aid in making a correct diagnosis, because we know the common sphere of action of the remedy.
So it goes both ways.
Roger
-
Roger Barr
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:00 pm
- Been thanked: 2 times
Re: Diagnosis vs. treatment
Paul Herscu didnt say he made the diagnosis based on the remedy, as I put it, it was an "aide to diagnosis"
Roger
Roger